by DocBob 19 Replies latest jw friends
Yesterday I saw Catherine Crier doing a phone interview with Dr. Firpo Carr on Court TV. Carr is defending Micheal Jackson. Here are some links about this you may want to look at:
http://www.nbc4.tv/news/2682915/detail.html
http://www.sacbee.com/24hour/photos/story/1079274p-7538020c.html
Last I knew, Firpo was a JW. Why would a JW "in good standing" allow his daughter to visit and stay at the home of a disassociated JW like Jackson?
Hey Bob,
It's Crier, babe.
Look at this I found too:
Jehovah’s Witnessess From a Black American Perspective: Review
1993 by Firpo W. Carr
This soft-cover book was published in 1993, and I obtained a copy from www.half.com in approximately 2003.
First, about Firpo Carr: (page 460) “Firpo Carr is a 38-year-old black Witness scholar from South Central Los Angeles who has studied the Witnesses for over 25 years. His parents say he was a child prodigy. Carr has survived the Watts Riots of 1955, the Los Angeles Riots of 1992…all the while associating with the Witnesses…all his life. He has served as a full-time pioneer monister with Jehovah’s Witnesses (has done so for 15 years).”
And what it says in Dr. Carr’s book about Dr. Carr’s book (page 460): “This book is the most comprehensive work ever published on African-American Witnesses. This thoroughly researched subject was examined from both an internal and external viewpoint by a qualified theologian who has attempted to be as objective as possible.…Put simply, the phenomenal book you are holding in your hands is an invaluable treasure you’ll cherish for a long time to come. All you need now is to delve into its revealing contents.”
The book is about 500 pages long, with a large type which is gratefully more comfortable to read than the average. There are ten chapters, each an average of thirty or so pages long:
1 Jehovah’s Witnesses and Black Muslims
2 Why Isn’t There a Black Man on the Governing Body?
3 Cracks in the Foundation
4 Blacks and the Watchtower Society-the Early Years
5 Notable Black Events and the Watchtower Society-Dates in Time
6 Jehovah’s witnesses and Racial Integration
7 Black Witness Officals—Past and Present
8 Famous Black Witnesses-Past and Present
9 Black History-as Told by the Watchtower Society
10 Black Liberation Theology-a Personal Account
These are followed by almost 200 pages of appendices, ten pages of references, and a ten-page index. There are over 40 black-and-white photographs. By placing the photographs throughout the book, and all the reference material at the end, the book is a very pleasant and easy-flowing read.
An interesting facet of the book is that Dr. Carr tackles some of the Watchtower’s critics head on. More than once he says “Critics say…” and proceeds to spell out what they say (or what he says they say) and then gives an answer.
He even takes it one step further. On page 48, he states: “…critics, who were Witnesses themselves at one time, irresponsibly state that “the Governing body of Jehovah’s witnesses has never had a non-Caucasion in its membership, Negro, Hispanic, or otherwise.” He then refers to page 462 of the book, which states as a reference “Bethel Ministries, “Blacks and the Watchtower,” Newsletter, July/Aug 1988, p. 2”. He then says on page 49: “One can easily see why Watchtower leadership strongly admonishes followers to stay away from “apostate literature.”
Well, to my knowledge, that comment in the Bethel Minitries newsletter was a personal comment by Randy Watters, who served at Bethel for a number of years and knew the Governing Body members. Randy has access to a good deal of originally written Watchtower history—I know because I have obtained some from him myself, as have many people.. Dr. Carr does not state what was so ‘irresponsible’ about Randy’s comment; other than to say one of the Governing body members, Bill Jackson was Black. He provides on page 398 a copy of Mr. Jackson’s birth certificate wherein it states “Race: White” of both parents. That is all the ‘responsible’ evidence Dr. Carr offers up in response to Randy Watter’s comment. –www.freeminds.org/history/blacks.htm.
Dr. Carr quotes Dr. Khalid Abdul Muhammad, who talks about the higher ranks of Jehovah’s Witnesses as being basically White with a few Black token positions here and there. Dr. Carr goes on to say “Apostates make similar charges. …such ones have been promoted no higher.” than circuit servants and members of the Service Department. Dr. Carr then goes on to quote Ebony magazine October 1951: “In the South, Negro companies have Negro company servants and other Negroes hold postitions as circuit and district servants.”
This is apples and oranges….Blacks holding positions only over other Blacks and only in the south would not qualify as racial integration by any stretch of the imagination. But women, too can hold positions in the congregation—if there are no other men to hold them and of they put a napkin on their heads!!! In addition, the Service Department is higher than district servants; the Service Department appoints them!!!
Photographs are shown on pages 411, 433, among others showing Black men performing various duites. But the only evidence contrary to Randy’s statement I could find in Dr. Carr’s book is a photograph on page 246 of James A. Thompson, with a caption that reads in part: “one of the first black district overseers in the United States…He currently serves as the branch committee coordinator of the Society’s branch office in Guyana.” The problem here, is that we don’t know WHEN Brother Thompson was made a district overseer; Randy’s statement was made in 1988 and the book was published in 1993. Regardless of who is right or wrong, it seems to me that if Dr. Carr is going to say Randy’s statement is untrue, how hard can it be to furnish ONE proper verifiable example as supportive evidence? And once again, the entire comment was that no one ever went higher than the Service Department---not district servant.
An interesting comment by Dr. Carr: “..ex-Witnesses (called ‘apostates’ by the Witnesses)…which is interesting because Watchtower calls former Witnesses who criticize or work against the religion ‘apostates’ but here Dr. Carr says by implication that all Witnesses view all former Witnesses as ‘apostates’.
A major question that Dr. Carr leads us to believe that he will answer, is: Has the Watchtower treated Blacks the same as Whites and other races?
The answer is either an astounding NO!!! or else he completely refuses to answer the question at all.
Pages and pages of the book are devoted to photos of Blacks mixing with Whites at conventions and assemblies; photos of Black men engaged in various activities at various Watchtower functions. He even mentions Black lawyers and physicians and dentists at Bethel.
BUT THAT WAS NOT THE QUESTION!!!
Here’s an example: Heather and Holly Berry’s father, Paul Berry, was convicted in criminal court of abusing his two daughters. During the sentencing phase, Jehovah’s witnesses came forward and testified how great and wonderful he was. Someone even testified, according to Holly, that he was a good employee. “He wasn’t on trial,” Holly said, “for being a lousy employee; he was on trial for rape!!”
No one has accused Watchtower of never allowing Blacks to be Jehovah’s witnesses. No one has accused Watchtower of preventing blacks from donating money for literature, Kingdom Halls and assemblies and conventions; of donating their time and other resources toward Watchtower interests. The accusation was, that Blacks were treated differently, in fact worse.
If you read Dr. Carr’s book all the way through, he basically supports the fact that Blacks were treated differently. Their contributions to Watchtower, doubtlessly equal to Whites, are gratefully accepted but they do not have an equal vote or say in Watchtower affairs. Put another way, Blacks are expected to contribute equally to Watchtower, but they are in turn expected to be good little peon soldiers and do what their White superiors tell them to do.
Interestingly enough, in the 1/1/2001 Watchtower, was an announcement that Samuel Herd was appointed to the Governing Body. A photograph will show that he is Black, and he is spoken of as Black throughout the Witness and non-Witness community. The Watchtower states that SINCE 1997, “Brother Herd has been working in the Service Department”, AFTER he was circuit and district overseer.
On page 219, Dr. Carr admits there is racism, defined as “a belief that some races are by nature superior to others; also, discrimination based on such belief.” He blames it though, on individuals who have not ‘put off the old personality’ and who are therefore ‘out of step with the teachings of the Bible, and the official position of Jehovah’s witnesses.” …”God does not tolerate such conduct.”
On page 219 appears the paragraph: Is There Any Racism? “You mean to say that there is absolutely no segregation among the Witnesses?” Yes, that is exactly what is being stated here. As has been well documented, the Witnesses, like it or not, practice racial integration.”
Just for fun, I looked at the first two dictionaries I laid my hands on, at my house. The first was ‘Websters Twentieth Century Dictionary’, 1957. It gives the defiintion of ‘integration’ as “make whole, complete, or unify.” The next one was Random House College dictionary (1975). There it says: “To give or cause to give equal oportunity to a group”; also “To meld with or become part of the dominant culture.” And finally, www.yourdictionary.com/ah...6700.html, integration means "the bringing of people of different racial or ethnic groups into unrestricted and equal association, as in society or an organization; desegregation."
I suppose by an antiquated definition, Jehovah’s Witnesses can be considered ‘integrated’ simply because they are allowed to be members. But by today’s modern standards, Black Witnesses certainly do not have “unrestricted and equal association” and they have NEVER had it. Quote after quote from Watchtower’s own literature, Dr. Carr shows us that the voices of Blacks have been muted all throughout Watchtower history, even up until 2001.
Pages 188-200 detail quote after quote from magazine and newspaper articles about how ‘integrated’ the congregations are and how up to ‘30%’ of the membership is Black, higher than the population, at least in the North and West. ‘Membership’ is considered integration. But that is not really integration, “unequaled and unrestricted.”
Think of pre-2001 Watchtower as a pyramid, with entry level Witnesses all along the wide bottom. There, on the bottom, may be integration. ‘Entry’ is unrestricted; contributions to the literature, Kingdon Halls, and meetings may be unrestricted; EVERYBODY’S money, time and efforts ARE welcome regardless of age, gender, or race, there is no doubt of that.
But start moving upward within the pyramid, straight up toward the center peak as if you were riding in an elevator. Suddenly, almost imperceptably, the picture begins to change. Fewer and fewer Black faces are seen around you as you ascend slowly toward the top. The women were left behind long ago, at the ‘elder’ level; and children are not counted as anything to begin with. About halfway up the pyramid—appraoaching a level of Watchtower most outsiders, and many insiders, never penetrate--, you will see almost no Black faces anymore. You will still see Black money, and Black labor, and Black book sales, and Black preaching; but you will hear almost no Black voices. And finally, at the top, the Black voices fade away; they are completely silent now.
Shame shame on the Watchtower!!! And shame on IRS for allowing the tax breaks that helped make it happen; and shame on a disinterested society under whose noses this fraud has been perpetrated.
On a humorous note, pages 217 and 218, Dr. Carr deals with the question of “Is Jesus Black.”, as well as the question of what the angels looked like. When explaining the Society’s constant representation of Jesus and the angels as White, he says “Descriptions, though are given in the Bible of some spirit creatures…When details are left out, we (or the artist, in his conception) are free to use our imagination consistant with the Scriptural content.”
On a human note, Dr. Carr speaks about his family; his mother Ophelia, his brothers, his sister. He mentions his wife Cynthia and his daughter Danielle. He certainly has a sense of humor that permeates his entire work, and without which I wouldn’t have been able to get past Chapter 2.
The book is important because of all the many Watchtower quotes regarding race in one reference work. And it is important because it demonstrates ignorance at best and self-delusion at worst, among the Witnesses regarding their own racial history. After having read this book, when you meet that witness at your door, you can ask them about racial equality within their ranks. They may never come back to your door again—but they certainly won’t forget you!!!
You can find more information here:
www.freeminds.org/african/firpocar.htm
www.freeminds.org/african/firpocar2.htm
stirinc.org/
www.freeminds.org/african/bergman.htm
www.freeminds.org/african...nation.htm
It was good to see ya in yahoo.
sKally
"Dr." Firpo Carr also was interviewed Thursday afternoon on the "The John and Ken Show" on radio station KFI in Los Angeles. I managed to call into the show and spoke to the call screener. John and Ken were not taking calls during their intervene segment with Carr. I mentioned to the screener the connection between Carr, Jackson and the Jehovah's Witnesses, pointing out that John and Ken had in the past pointed out the child molesting scandals within the Jehovah's Witnesses.
John and Ken did not mention the JW connection but did indicate that they may have Carr back. I must admit Carr is quite personable and an entertaining interview even if he had a hard time explaining why it was normal for a 45 year old man to sleep in the same bed as young boys who are unrelated to him.
Maybe race has something to do w it?
SS
Thanks DocBob,
Good to have you drop in with news.
Steve
How can this last,
Firpo Carr is a WT apologist. In his best work defending the Jws he also devoted a chapter, at least, to the unfortunate treatment of Michael Jackson from within the WT. Now he goes public defending a disassociated Michael Jackson. How long can a JW last doing that?
Steve
Well, well well.
First of all, hello everyone. I have missed you all.
Secondly, imagine my surprise when I sat watching CNN yesterday morning and saw what appeared to me to be a younger version of Al Sharpton defending Michael Jackson!!!
The caption read, "Firpo Carr"--and I'm thinking, WHY DO I KNOW THAT NAME?!?!? and al of a sudden it dawns on me!
Let me just say, I didn't even know Firpo Carr was a black dude, so I near blew an artery laughing. Then I tell my husband (who was watching with me) the story of Firpo Carr. I'm saying, no way this dude is still a JW. He's defending a nut-job disfellowshipped JW. And he's sounding more like a civil rights activist (a' la Al Sharpton, not Martin Luther King, LOL)
What a riot! This X-JW world just gets wierder and wierder!!!
Lisa
Busy Lately Class
Lisa,
Agree, but more important, it was nice to see you drop in.
Jst2laws
sf.....thanks for posting that, it was very interesting reading. I knew a brother in the early '80s who was black and I remember him as a very nice, kind person.....when he first studied with the witnesses, he had a beard which was due to the fact that, being black and because of his own idiosyncracies, his facial hair would grow terribly ingrown if shaved. He explained his situation well to the local elders and they accepted him with his beard (which he kept very well managed), and he was baptized the following year. But the circuit overseer did not approve, and talked with the man about the organization's view on grooming and appearance. The brother could not understand why it was so important not to have beards if Jesus himself had one. He was told that it was just the way things were done back then, but today in Jehovah's organization, we all have to be united and look the right way to other people so they would identify us as Jehovah's Witnesses and our looks would be a witness to them. I don't think it escaped my friend's attention who it was that got to SET THESE STANDARDS. He had a perfectly legitimate medical reason to wear a nicely trimmed, neat beard, but that wasn't good enough. So he gave in to pressure, and shaved his beard and then had to deal with his complexion ruined with in-growns -- an appearance far worse than how it was with a nicely trimmed beard. And that was about the last I saw of him in the congregation. --Leolaia
is Samuel Herd the same one that was District overseer in MA/NH for a while? If so I knew him...liked him very much.
Sounds like an interesting read...I think I will have to look it up. When I was going to the hall, there were about 10 elders in our congregation of about 120 or so active publishers...and one of them was black...not too bad when you consider there were only 2 or 3 black brothers in the congregation. He was appointed in the early 80s I believe...
One of the reasons I liked it when we had our assemblies in MA was because there were always a decent mix of whites and non whites, both in the crowd and on the platform. I think there is a lot more sexism in the religion than racism...but I am a white female, so I have no idea what it is like to feel racism...I am sure it is there, but I don't think it is any more racist than some other religions.
Thanks for the good info...I enjoyed it
