by Faraon 28 Replies latest watchtower bible
I found this interesting article about the evolution of Yaweh in the site www.pantheon.org
http://www.pantheon.org/articles/y/yahweh.html
The more I read, the more I am convinced that I must learn more and not fall trapped again by religious organizations.
Ah, yes... the speculations and musings of earthling man. Sigh! Each one of these... ummmm... descriptions - from "Yahweh" to "Nechustan" to the "seraphim" and "cherubin" - are so contrived, so false and so way off... I do not know where to begin.
Ah, well. But, it's 2am (couldn't sleep; iced tea (i.e., caffeine, a no-no))... and I just don't have the energy to respond to each and every fallacy right now. Maybe another time.
Peace to you.
A slave of Christ,
SJ
It is possible that the tribes adopted these gods during the hundreds of years they spent in Egypt. Or perhaps the tribes were never part of the descendants of Abraham that accepted Yahweh during the covenant, and only joined this loose alliance of tribes later. Possibly, the covenant never happened and was only a later myth, added to the cycle of origin stories in the Bible. No one really knows.
Maybe, perhaps, possibly, nobodys is quite sure, there is no actual evidence, it just could be, ......and words like this, when it comes to religion, make it rather hard for me to be a believer in anything with a solid foundation. Ideas are a must in the quest for truths.
Thanks Faraon. It was an intresting read. Perhaps archeology will uncover more evidence of ancient history, to give mankind a clearer picture of things we wonder about.
Gumby
Gumby,
Thanks Faraon. It was an intresting read. Perhaps archeology will uncover more evidence of ancient history, to give mankind a clearer picture of things we wonder about.
Yes, you're right. The picture is not perfectly clear at the moment. Most of the evidence has been destroyed by later beliefs, and changing world practices. Even in modern days, you can see how JWs have whitewashed, supressed, or changed evidence about their past. And we are talking about the last hundred years or so in a literate world. Can you imagine how hard it is to find hard evidence covered by more than two thousand years old in a world dominated by Islam, Christianity, and Judaism? Not only that, but books and writings were very rare and the populus was purposedly left ignorant by the ruling classes. Even some kings during the dark ages didn't know how to read.
The scant evidence left can only be speculated at this point in time. The author does not try to hide this or, a la Watchtower, make it seem as a hard fact. There are quite a few facts that come out through this essay, and are loud and clear. Originally YHWH was merely one of the many minor gods. This fact has been pointed out by PeacefulPete by pointing to older bible texts. Especially in Deuteronomy where it shows that the supreme god divided the Earth among his sons, and one of his sons, YHWH, received the only the Hebrews as his inheritance. The other [god] sons received the rest.
This proves that Jehovah had a beginning because he had a father. It also proves that he does not rule over every thing because he received only part of the world.
I agree with you that we need more evidence from the archeologists in order to get a better picture of the past, especially about a religion that was the originator of so much pain.
Faraon
Very interesting read and explanation of why elohim is applied to Jehovah. However, I do wonder about the accuracy of ascribing Exodus 13:21 to an active volcano.
It says "The pillar of cloud would not move away from before the people in the daytime nor the pillar of fire in the nighttime."
Then later when the Egyptians were closing in on them it says (14:19,20): Then the angel of the (true) God who was going ahead of the camp of Israel departed and went to their rear, and the pillar of cloud departed from their van and stood in the rear of them. So it came in between the camp of the Egyptians and the camp of Israel. On the one hand it proved to be a cloud together with darkness. On the other hand it kept lighting up the night. And this group [the Egyptians] did not come near that group [the Israelites] all night long."
That doesn't really allow for any natural cause like a volcano. Further, I don't think there is evidence of volcanic rock on the Egyptian side of the Red Sea is there ? The writer of the article then says:
Then, to fully prove this assumption, they gathered around this mountain, and were told that they were never to climb or touch it, on danger of death. "Take heed to yourselves, that ye go not up into the mount, or touch the border of it: whosoever touchesth the mount shall be surely put to death (Exodus 19:12)." The mountain must have been dangerously hot to the touch. The passage continues: "And mount Sinai was altogether on a smoke, because the Lord Yahweh descended upon it in fire: and the smoke thereof ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly." Another clear description of an active volcano. And at this emotionally impressive location Moses gave the Israelites a Code of Law, and reforged a covenant which was to become the basis for the development of monotheism.
What that fails to say is how Moses received this Code of Law. Exodus 19:20,24 says "Then Jehovah called Moses to the top of the mountain, and Moses went on up...However, Jehovah said to him: 'Go, descend, and you must come up, you and Aaron with you; but let not the priests and the people break through to come up to Jehovah...' " Again this seems to be a very discriminate "volcano", affecting those that touch it depending on who they are.
But this is just a quibble. By and large I thought the ideas very interesting. thanks for posting it.
Earnest
This is precisely whats screwing with my head, I read stuff like this, I read other stuff, what the hell do I believe? I have no idea what to.
Earnest,
What that fails to say is how Moses received this Code of Law. Exodus 19:20,24 says "Then Jehovah called Moses to the top of the mountain, and Moses went on up...However, Jehovah said to him: 'Go, descend, and you must come up, you and Aaron with you; but let not the priests and the people break through to come up to Jehovah...'
Your comment made me think:
How could Jehovah tell Moses not to let the priests to come up to Jehovah?
The institution of Jehovah's priesthood had not begun yet. Unless he meant the Egyptian priests?
Logical,
This is precisely whats screwing with my head, I read stuff like this, I read other stuff, what the hell do I believe? I have no idea what to.
I really can't tell you what to do. I see myself as a life-long learner. If I see that something sounds more reasonable, or can be proven, I will change my mind accordingly.
A good way to start, and I try to be, is to use your name. Be Logical
I also consider not only myself, but to what my actions will have upon others. Even if at this time I consider myself more of an atheist, it does not prevent me from reading religious literature. Funny thing though. The more religious literature I see, the more convinced I become of the fraud of organized religion.
I believe that god would have to be, above all, a mathematical entity. Physical and chemical laws are guided by mathematics.
Astronomers, for instance, have found that there are galaxies that are 14 billion light years away. This is a measure of distance, but it also means that we see a light that started on its way to us more than 14 billion years ago. Therefore they were created at least that many years ago. I find it incredible to think that the god of the bible would create them 10,000 years ago, after the Earth, then move some of them to incredibly long distances. Accelerate their light, so that they would cover various distances, and then slow light so that it would appear differently. The more I look into Hebrew mythology, the more I am convinced that the reason why these facts are hidden from people is because a lot of people have vested interests in covering the truth.
What do I do? I try to make the world a better place to be for future generations. Even if a little. I believe humanity will survive religious ideas and do the right thing because it is right. Not because of a punishment or a reward.
faraon
Faraon,
How could Jehovah tell Moses not to let the priests to come up to Jehovah [Exodus 19:24] ? The institution of Jehovah's priesthood had not begun yet. Unless he meant the Egyptian priests?
Excellent question, and I can only surmise although I'm pretty sure he wasn't referring to the Egyptian priests. Exodus 19:22 speaks of the priests "who regularly come near to Jehovah" so it seems some sort of a priesthood had developed while they were in slavery in Egypt. This is not really surprising as the Egyptian priesthood was highly developed and the notion goes right back to Abraham and Melchizedek.
Exodus 29:1;30:30;31:10;35:19;39:41all speak of Aaron and his sons as "acting as priests" and Aaron's prominence as God's spokesman with Moses likely defaulted to the priesthood. Later the Levites were also included (Numbers 3), although the comment at Exodus 32:26 suggests they were always prominent.
I also dare say there has been some redactionism in the last 3,500 years.
Earnest
Get the book, " the Early History of God" by Mark Smith. It is probably the best objective and broad coverage of the study with plentiful bibliography and discussion of currently debated points. Ultimately, the smoking mountain motif is an El/Baal storm god theophany (a mythic manifestation of a deity) fused to the desert deity YHWH There is no need for an actual volcano for the legend. Just as YHWH and Baal traveled in a firey chariot and spoke in thunderclaps,made national/tribal covenants, they both lived on and spoke from a mountain top, in the "north." (Both claimed Sapon as their's, another topic)
The author of this essay is about 40 years behind the field. His basic outline is correct, but shows little awareness of recent improvements in understanding of Israel's past, that of it's immediate neighbors, and the developement of their mythology. Gumby, friend, you too need to read this book.
