The evolution of YHWH

by Faraon 28 Replies latest watchtower bible

gumby

Hi Pete,
Yes....I do need to continue studying the cons against the bible. I have had years of "pros" on the bible.....and little on the negative side. I can tell you this though........what studying I have done on the negative side.......it didn't take much to uncover the fallacies of god through the eyes of the bible.
I have re-searched enough that I need a brain break for a bit longer. I am still reading the christ conspiracy which I believe you said had a bad review from other scholars. One only needs to compare the religious beliefs of others.......to those of the Jews/Hebrews of the bible, to see the plagurized connections....(spelled plagerized wrong)
One also should be able to see the murdrous nature of a supposed.....loving god....in the pages of the old testement. Nobody in their right mind could justify gods actions towards those innocent in the bible such as babies, children, women,.......and well......anybody. God cherrypicks a handfull of people to deal with........and kills anybody who stands in their way. Not a merciful god by any means.
As Logical said......it's frustrating to see the error in the bible..........as this leaves a void with many important unanswed questions which leaves a hole in your heart. It does mine anyway.
Gumby
Enishi

Learning just how flawed the Bible is left me feeling heartbroken for quite some time. I knew the truth for years, but didn't want to admit it. I would be left feeling disgusted whenever I read the old testament, but always tried to explain it away (God didn't have a choice, society was different back then and God had to deal with people differently, things like that). For a while I'd hoped that at least Jesus was the real thing, but it seems even that was just a mirage as well. Even if there was an Essene teacher whom the story of Jesus was partly based on, searching for spiritual revelation through 2000 year old writings simply isnt going to work.
I still feel that there's some deep truths in the Bible and in the teachings of Jesus, but you really need to read inbetween the lines to notice them at times. However, although the learning that the Bible isn't God's word did destroy my sense of assurance, it has also freed me to continue my search. I no longer expect to find any ancient source of information that will reveal the truth to me. The only way to find is to look within, to learn through direct experience.
gumby

Enishi,
I no longer expect to find any ancient source of information that will reveal the truth to me. The only way to find is to look within, to learn through direct experience.
Hi...and good mornin girl,
Your thought mirror mine quite well.
As for finding information that could give us some clues as to mans beggining and purpose.....I think there are answers yet to be found. Suppose in 20 years we are able to find and observe life on other plantets? Suppose more writings of the ancients are found which are the missing puzzels to what is speculated as being truth today?
I agree that even with these findings........we may still never know how it all started.
One thing I do hope however that I hope is not true, .....and that is finding out Evolution is how we humans came to be, and that there is no spiritual side to us other than in our mind. That would suck in my book.
Gumby
Enishi

Hi...and good mornin girl,

Uh, I'm a guy. So is the character in my avatar.
agree that even with these findings........we may still never know how it all started.
One thing I do hope however that I hope is not true, .....and that is finding out Evolution is how we humans came to be, and that there is no spiritual side to us other than in our mind. That would suck in my book.
Exactly my thought as well. Although the fact of evolution is evident and cannot be refuted, I don't agree with the scientists theories on it. There's just to many holes. In fact, I don't trust the creationists or the evolutionists. Both seem incredibly dogmatic to me, the truth is probably somewhere in the middle.
I know how you feel about there being no spiritual side to our minds, the idea that our entire existence was just some cosmic accident, and that all of our emotions and experiences are accidental survival methods created to preserve our genes (which will be destroyed anyway when the sun goes nova), disgusts me to the very core of my being.
The article someone posted awhile back on torture methods used by the Catholic church got me thinking. There have been countless people who were born into this world and were horribly wronged without justice ever being done. In medieval europe, there were those whos lives ended in tradedy, being tortured to death by insane Christians. There were many children who meet their end this way. The thought that they are rotting in their graves, never having had a chance to experience happiness or retribution, with their murderers never having been brought to justice and getting the same fate as them, is so completely unjust that it drives me crazy with anger.
I don't care if its true that we are nothing more than highly evolved pond scum and that there's no afterlife, I refuse to ever stop searching, for me that would be the same as giving up on life itself.
My personal intuition on our origins, is that biological evolution does not explain the evolution of consciousness. The natural forces which shaped us and spiritual forces are in fact inseparable.
Actually, there are many scientists who are considering other explanations for our origins and are researching consciousness. The thing is, their research is very unpopular among the academic community and materialists try to marginalize it or label it all as baloney.
peacefulpete

I fear your approach to healing yourself is like the person who takes antibiotics only until he begins to feel better, not the full course prescribed by the doctor.

gumby..the conspiracy book has much of value, yet she unfortunately is in a similar place as you are when it comes to seeing the big picture. She's hiding in a new age mystcism, you in ambivalence. That many find evolution to be inspiring rather than depressing shows that the facts of science are not the issue, it is rather, our perception. Our religious conditioning has deeply ingrained in us the false premise that a natural explanation devalues life. Seeing life as an incredible lucky break for me inspires greater appreciation for what good I've got.
gumby

Sorry Enishi for the mixup in gender. Now I feel gay dammit!
Pete...I'm late for the 49ers game and will get back with ya.
Later gators,
Gumby
Leolaia

In Ugarit literature, El begat seventy sons with the goddess Asherah in heaven. These "sons of El" made up his divine council, the "council of El". In these Canaanite poems, the "sons of El" (bn 'lm/bn 'l) were described as "the assembly of the stars". In another poem, they are also called "holy ones": "Now the gods were seating to eat, the holy ones to dine, Baal attending upon El, the gods drop their heads upon their knees".
The psalms incorporate traditional material from Canaanite mythology, replacing references to Baal with Yahweh or Elohim (God), leaving references to El and his divine council ocassionally intact. Ps. 82:1, a psalm on justice, begins: "God [Heb. 'lwhm] stands in the assembly of El [Heb. 'dw 'l], among the gods ['lwhm] he dispenses justice." Although the two are identified, it is still possible to detect that El and Elohim were two distinct figures. The "assembly of El" is also equated with the "gods". The likely original of this may have been: "Baal stands in the assembly of El, among the gods he dispenses justice." Verse 6 continues: "You too are gods, sons of Elyon, all of you." In Canaanite mythology, Elyon was an epithet of El (El-Elyon). Another example utilizing traditional material is Ps. 89:5-10:
Yahweh, the assembly of holy ones in heaven applaud the marvel of your faithfulness. Who in the skies can compare with Yahweh? Which of the sons of El (Heb. bn 'l) can rival him? El (Heb. 'l), dreaded in the assembly of holy ones, great and terrible to all around him, Yahweh, God of Sabaoth, who is like you? Mighty Yahweh, clothed in your faithfulness! You control the pride of the Sea [Heb. ym], when its waves ride high, you calm them; you split Rahab in two like a carcase and scattered your enemies with your mighty arm." (Ps. 89:5-10)
In the first half of this passage, Yahweh is presented as the one whom the other sons of El fail to rival, implicitly the foremost of the gods in heaven, and distingushed from El. In the second half, the distinction between El and Yahweh is blurred, but references to Yahweh's control over the Sea (Heb. ym) and the mythological splitting of Rahab into two like a carcase, reveals clearly that Yahweh takes the place of Baal, who in Canaanite myth, fights the Sea monster Yamm (also known as Lotan=Leviathan, and apparently in Israel as Rahab), and splits Yamm's body in half (cf. the Enuma Elish battle with Tiamat).
As for the "assembly of God" being described as "stars" as in the Ugaritic text, witness Job 38:7 which also employs Ugaritic-style parallelism: "when all the morning stars were singing with joy, and the sons of God in chorus were chanting praise." The most striking psalm that bears the most affinities to Ugaritic poems on Baal is Psalm 29:
Pay tribute to Yahweh, you sons of El [Heb. bn 'lm]
Tribute to Yahweh of glory and power,
tribute to Yahweh of the glory of his name,
worship Yahweh in his sacred court.
The voice of Yahweh over the waters!
Yahweh over multitudimous waters
The voice of Yahweh in power!
The voice of Yahweh in splendor!
The voice of Yahweh shatters the ceders,
Yahweh shatters the ceders of Lebanon,
making Lebanon leap like a calf,
Sirion like a wild bull.
The voice of Yahweh sharpens lightning shafts!
The voice of Yahweh sets the wilderness shaking.
Yahweh shakes the wilderness of Kadesh.
The voice of Yahweh sets the terebinths shuddering,
stripping the forests bare.
The El of glory thunders.
In his palace everything cries, "Glory!"
Yahweh sits enthroned over the Flood
Yahweh sits enthroned as king for ever.
Yahweh gives strength to his people
Yahweh blesses his people with peace
The content of the poem directly derivative of Canaanite Baal hymnology as attested in Ugarit texts; like Baal, Yahweh has control over the waters, a voice of thunder, he "sharpens lightning shafts," resides in a palace built on the defeat of the Flood of chaos. The "young wild bull" in v. 6 recalls Baal's bull-calf iconography. The geographical details (Lebanon, the local Phoenician toponym Sirion, Kadesh which was located north of Damascus, the reference to forests of ceders) point to an original provenance of the hymn in Syria or Phoenicia. Finally, the style of the poem, especially the strict parallelism, is characteristic of the poetry of Ugarit. Most scholars agree that Psalm 29 was originally an ode to Baal later adapted to Yahweh.
Leolaia
Faraon

Earnest,
My idea was to point to a contradiction in time. Maybe this was caused by careless revisionism.
The thing about the priests not being allowed in the mountain happens in Exodus chapter 19. There were no priests at the time that Jehovah gave out the tablets, so it is dumb to say that J told Moses to tell the priests not to come to the mountain since the priesthood started at a later time by consecrating Aaron and his sons on Chapter 28.
It would be like someone telling me not to bring my son knowing fully that I was a virgin at the time, telling Moses not to bring his computer, or someone finding a coin stamped with the date 25 BC. An obvious fraud.
The thing about Moses telling the Egyptian priests not to come to the mountain was tongue in cheek. There could not have been Egyptian priests in service of the Israelis after leaving Egypt, or the whole exodus thing becomes moot.
Faraon.
Earnest

Hi Faraon,
My idea was to point to a contradiction in time. Maybe this was caused by careless revisionism.
Yup, I quite understood the point you were making and perhaps it was careless revisionism. Although, considering the importance of Exodus 19 & 20 to the Israelites I would have thought any mistakes would have been picked up and disposed of long ago.
What I was suggesting was that a de facto priesthood existed among the Israelites even before they left Egypt. Numbers 3:39-51 explains that the Levitical priesthood replaced the firstborn of Israel who were sanctified to Jehovah. So it seems that the firstborn of each family acted as priest for the family until the Levitical priesthood was set up. At the time the Levitical priesthood was set up there were 22273 of them (the firstborn). That makes a lot of priests.
Earnest
AGuest

who "renders 'sacred' service... by offering up sacrifices upon altars... to gods. Either the True God... or any one of the other many gods that exist, literally and mythologically. Such offerings may be in the form of something tangible (i.e., man, plant, animal, blood, etc.)... or it can be in the form of earnest supplication within the "temple" of JAH... upon His "altar" (place of concealment/protection).
With regard to the True God, the Most Holy One of Israel, whose name is JAH of Armies... Abel made such offerings, as did Cain. As did Noah... and Abraham and many, many others. With regard to Sinai, however, Moses father-in-law, Jethro, was a Midianite priest... and made such sacrifices on behalf of "Midian", the descendants of Abraham through his son Midian by his second wife, Keturah. That his position was important is born out by Moses being directed to follow his advice.
Sacrifices did not start with the Law Covenant; therefore, neither did priestly responsibilities. Job acted as "priest" for his family, making supplication on their behalf IN CASE they had committed some error that he didn't even know about. The difference was that ISRAEL... was to become a NATION of kings... and priests... sanctified to render sacred service to the True God... on behalf of ALL of mankind. All they needed do... was hail their king, JAH'S "firstborn." Instead, they killed him and as a result such priestly "privilege"... has been opened to ALL nations, tribes, tongues and peoples. That is WHY the "great crowd" is seen standing BEFORE the throne of God... RENDERING such "sacred" service.
A TRUE priest... is one who seeks MERCY for God's sheep... NOT condemnation... asking forgiveness on their behalf, while trying to keep himself "clean". You will see this "truth" in Abraham, in Moses, as well as in Christ. These ALWAYS pled of behalf of God's people (Abraham with regard to Sodom and Gomorrah, Moses with regard to Israel in the wilderness, and Christ... for everyone who comes to him, no matter their nation, tribe, tongue or people).
And excluding the Christ, even the priest will fail... and thereby need someone to plead for HIM/HER... which is WHY... there is the Christ... the true HIGH priest of all of earthling man who receive him as such: he is the ONLY one free from sin so that HIS sacrifice was without blemish... and thus his pleadings are always heard... and granted.
I bid you peace.
A slave of Christ,
SJ

The evolution of YHWH

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