Sea Breeze, how does the traditional position explain that there is a second death. How are people made alive a second time in order for them to die a second time?
Watchtower View on Resurrection - All Panda Bears?
by Sea Breeze 41 Replies latest watchtower bible
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Sea Breeze
Joen, If a person holds a different definition of "death" than the one that is in the bible, nothing concerning resurrections will make sense.
So , the first thing is to understand that when your soul, body and spirit are separated from one another - you are dead. When all three are integrated to one another - you are alive.
No where in the bible does it say that people are resurrected to spirit life. This is TOTALLY a fabrication of the Watchtower. It is an impossibility, because the very term "resurrection" means a re-integration of the body, soul and spirit.
Let that sink in a minute. I can refute any Watchtower proof scripture to the contrary - believe me or try me. Christians take this for kind of stuff for granted, we however were heavily brainwashed otherwise and think different definitions than Christians do when using the same words. Hence the reason JW's and Christians seem to argue in circles and end up exhausted.
Bottom line is - At death, the consciousness survives :
Rev. 6: 9 "I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?Scripture says "there is no one righteous, no not one". So when it speaks of "the righteous" it is speaking of those "legally declared righteous" through faith in Messiah. This has always been the case since Genesis 3: 15.
So the righteous dead are comforted in heaven until the rapture where they will be reunited with their bodies immediately before the Church is taken to heaven (in their now glorified bodies suitable for heavenly or earthly life) :
1 Thess. 4 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are [asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
For the unrighteous dead, they are also conscious but in a much more dreary place ie. the rich man vs. Lazarus. There, they must wait "until the thousand years have ended" and then they will be resurrected (body, soul & spirit integration) in order to stand trial, fully alive, in the flesh - to answer for the sins that they committed while in the flesh at the Great White Throne judgment described Rev 20
I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Some conservative Christian Scholars believe that the unrighteous dead will finally be annihilated in the Lake of Fire with no consciousness. However the majority believe that since man was engineered to be conscious to live forever so as to permanently enjoy the presence of God, his consciousness cannot cease. A literal reading suggests unending consciousness.
Either way, once a person is thrown into a lake of fire, obviously the body would immediately perish, hence making the person biblically dead.... even if still conscious.
The point is, that from a consistent biblical point of view, a person cannot die a second time unless he is first made alive again through the reintegration of his soul, body and spirit, in a resurrection.
Hope this helps .
- Sea Breeze -
waton
How about a judgement in absentia?
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Sea Breeze
Waton:
Judgement No. 1 in the previous chart, appears to be the only one that is done in absentia. Christ willingly "became sin" at Calvary and was crucified in our place vicariously..... for those who choose to believe. Because of faith, scripture says "We are crucified with Christ" - Gal 2: 20
If we lived before that event, we are saved by looking forward to Messiah, if we lived after - we are saved by looking back to it.
According to scripture, everyone will be judged (Hebrews 9: 27) but not everyone is judged at the same place or for the same reasons.
Judgement No. 2 is also for Believers. It determines how well they did as a Christian Believer. (1 Cor. 3:15 - If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved) Salvation is not at stake here. That was determined in Judgement #1. Here, there are 5 possible crowns that a believer may receive directly from the the Lord Jesus (in person) dependent upon their performance. Everyone gets at least one crown. The overall nature of this judgement is positive.
Judgement No. 3 is for the Jews (and others who come to faith during the Great Tribulation) ie. "he who endures until the end is who will be saved. " Most will be killed by the anti-christ during his 7 year reign of terror. A remnant will be left along with a great number of other people at the end of the GT. ... which brings us to the next Judgment
Judgement No. 4 - This is the sheep and the goats judgement. (Judgement of the Nations) The WT has only just recently (and I might add - accurately) placed the sheep & goats judgement at the very beginning of the Millennium reign instead of viewing it as part of the door to door work.
Apparently, after Christ defeats the anti-christ at Armageddon, large numbers of people (1/3 ?) are still alive on the earth who escaped the craziness of the antichrist (some future world leader who is the incarnation of Satan). Those left are allowed in or sent to hell to await further judgement based on how they treated the Jews (Christ's brothers) during the attempts of the Anti-christ to wipe them out. This is in person as well since they are "gathered before" Jesus and as he separates them.
Judgement No. 5 is the one to avoid at all costs. No one survives this judgement since they are judged based "upon their works". It is in person as they "stand before God". Having not looked to Messiah to save them from their sin nature, they are given what they desire - eternal separation from God and his "sacrificial Lamb."
Looking to Jehovah, a particular church or your works will not save a person. They must look to the "seed of the woman" for salvation. Jesus said "come to me and I will give you rest for your souls", not Jehovah.
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waton
Judgement No. 1
SB: In the talking snake story, all of mankind is adversely judged in absentia, is it not?
In evolution, (the process), any birth, death is a tool for finding the best way, to conform, to better use the laws of nature. Is not in that sense every demise a sacrificial death? a fait accompli?
The story of a repeat of life has its appeal, but where is the proof that it is true, has any substance?
The idea, that you are brought back to life just to be judged, condemned makes it even more unrealistic. imho
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BelisemDeBelimakom
Thank you Sea Breeze! I really appreciated your explanations and logical connections on the matter.
God bless!
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waton
1) Bottom line is - At death, the consciousness survives
2): So the righteous dead are comforted in heaven until the rapture,S B, yeah, thanks for the insights ino the spin of non-wt "scholars" on this.
1) death being less numbing than total anesthesia?
I had terrible things done to me on the operating table, totally unconscious, gratefully. Death is a less effective painkiller than a chemical?
2) Like the reverse rapture quoted above, A "souls or spirit" already up there, getting into a body down here, and the ascending again? Interesting thoughts, but without being deliberately irreverend,what can one expect from a story starting with the Gen !:! mistake. and based on a talking snake plot? fun plodding through though!
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waton
Apparently there was a lot of speculation on how those resurrected will be needing to be taught God’s ways in last weeks WT study
SB: apparently wt writers can not get off their mistaken belief that they have a lot to teach everybody else., and will continue to do so in the "New System". --no wonder, because
as true believers they are convinced, , that Russel, Rutherford, Franz are already resurrected, and aware, if not involved in wt's output
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Sea Breeze
Exactly Waton. The WT can't even imagine God running the universe without them! Huge inflated pride there. The bubble will burst though as it always does.
Pride before Fall. -
Vidiot
What Sea Breeze said.
When you set yourself up to become the very top of the ideological food chain, and the opposite happens, there's nowhere to go but down.
And faced with that downward slide, you make increasingly crazy-ass decisions to keep and maintain the illusion...
...which, of course, further accelerate the slide.
It's called the "nightmare stage" of wishful thinking.