No. They had choice. Free will. They had the capability of sinning, as we all do. But also guidance. They chose to listen to strangers rather than their creator.
Did God know adam and eve would sin?
by gavindlt 73 Replies latest watchtower bible
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westiebilly11
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mikeflood
I remember the book of Job, how it was allowed to suffer, and how Lucifer? , was in talking terms with God ...
You guys should remember the war in heavens in the book of Revelation, too. Imagine if the dark side have won..
So... I'm giving up, they are created 'good' and anyway they like the dark side.
One last question, if they are good to indulge in the dark side, because of the 'free will' ...why they aren't allowed to repent?
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SydBarrett
"But wasn't satan tempted by wanting the worship of the humans?"
What is 'worship'? Why would an immortal spirit creature want or need this? Even if it did, why all the jealousy if a particular human 'worships' a different spirit creature? I don't fly into a rage if my dog leaves my side for the company of a different family member.. -
PioneerSchmioneer
I believe some of you may be reading into the Adam & Eve account something that was not there when the original author(s) composed it.
Remember, it was not written by Christians with the book of Revelation or any of the New Testament and any Christian theology in mind.
This means there was no concept of "Satan the Devil" when reading the narrative of Adam & Eve story. The serpent is not "Satan" any more than the talking donkey in Numbers chapter 22 is "Satan." In the Torah, a talking animal is a Hebrewism, a Jewish narrative device to indicate that a character is having a "crisis of consicence." It is very primative but it explains while neither Eve nor Balaam act as if it is anything out of the ordinary to encounter an animal speaking and then actually engage the animal in converstation as they would anyone else. It isn't meant to indicate demonic possession but a warning to the character due to their being at a decisive crossroads.
The Jews did not at the time of the writing of the Torah and to this day believe in Satan the Devil. So to claim that "God would know that Adam and Eve would sin" could possibly mean:
- The story of Adam and Eve is indeed about sinning which would lead many to argue
- That the narrative would not be fully comprehended until Augustine of Hippo (354-430 CE) first defined the story as "original sin"--something Judaism does not, and that
- Opens a can of worms, that if God knew that Adam & Eve would "sin," this means that this was indeed "Original Sin" as defined by the Catholic Church, implying the God does indeed use that body--and that would be problematic for many.
The problem merely continues if one insists along this line of thought since it was the Roman Church that validated the doctrine which therefore insisted on the baptism of infants because of this view. Unless one breaks away from this understanding, as many have, one is left to choose sides, either with Catholicism or the view that the narrative was metaphorical:
The doctrine has long been the prerequisite for the Christian understanding of the meaning of Jesus’ Crucifixion and atonement and was especially promulgated by St. Augustine in the West. Despite its importance for understanding Jesus’ sacrifice, and as a motivation behind the practice of infant baptism in some churches, the doctrine of original sin has been minimized since the European Enlightenment. Indeed, the idea that salvation is necessary because of the universal stain of original sin is no longer accepted by a number of Christian sects and interpretations, especially among those Christians who consider the story of Adam and Eve to be less a fact and more a metaphor of the relation of God and humanity.--Original Sin: Britannica.com
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PioneerSchmioneer
Here's another way to think about it...
Let's say God DID "know" that Adam and Eve would sin--and created them anyway.
People choose to have children all the time, knowing full well that none of these children will be perfect, that these children will grow up to disobey. Does the fact that you will produce imperfect offspring--perhaps some even criminals despite the fact that you are the best of parents--stop you from having kids? No.
The argument is a straw man. It's idiotic. In real life it happens all the time. Does that mean that we kill the parents that have bad children or that they are to blame for their evil offspring, or that since their children go rogue that this means their parents don't exist? No.
Stupid question.
People who are mad at the Watchtower end up blaming the Bible instead of the Governing Body and the elders and their instructors from the cult. A cult serves you meatloaf, you associate meatloaf with the cult, you leave the cult and you go around telling people in the real world that meatload is evil--you even tell regular people outside the cult that they are stupid and "evil" for eating meatloaf. It's just meatloaf.
But it's not really your fault. You have been brainwashed by a cult to associate "meatloaf" with a cult.
The Watchtower makes you associate the Bible and religious things with its cult--so questions designed to make meatloaf--I mean religion and the Bible look stupid and evil are constantly made because the Governing Body has brainwashed members to make sure they don't get the blame. "Don't blame us. It's all in the meatloaf," the Governing Body told you, and you still believe that.
But meatloaf is just meatloaf. It doesn't do the same things to people outside of a cult. They eat it all the time. It's just not served to them by a cult. That's the difference.
(By the way...The Watchtower did not create "meatloaf.")
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James Brown
My subjective opinion is that God knows everything. He is one supercomputer running and controlling everything. Why? Because that is what he does. How do I know? I don't, but the bible says He knows everything. If you don't believe in the bible why would you believe in God?
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peacefulpete
If you don't believe in the bible why would you believe in God?
I'm sure you thought of this after posting but billions of humans throughout history believed in gods but never possessed the Bible. The Bible, including it's origin stories, is a consequence of belief in gods not the other way around.
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cofty
There was no Adam and Eve.
You can of course discuss the meanings of the myths but start from reality.
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Rattigan350
Vanderhoven "Since the Lamb was slain before the foundation of the world, He had to know before creating man"
That's not what that means.
It means that after the sin, Jehovah set a purpose for the redemption using his son.
The founding of the world was not before creation.
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carla
If your God didn't know in advance that Adam & Eve supposedly 'sinned' then you have a very small god.