I edited out my rudeness.
The Crucifixion in History
by hooberus 43 Replies latest watchtower bible
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hooberus
Here are the death accounts from the sites peacedfulpete posted:
Inanna was turned into a corpse,
A piece of rotting meat,
And was hung from a hook on the wall.... http://inanna.virtualave.net/tammuz.html#The sick woman was turned into a corpse,
The corpse was hung from a stake. http://www.geocities.com/foxmob/sumer_pantheon04.htm#inanna's%20descentI appears that Inanna was killed first, then her dead body was hung on an "hook on the wall" / hung "from a stake." I think that the word stake here probably represents a piercing object protruding from a wall rather than a large upright stake (like the watchtower depicts Jesus on).
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hooberus
The New Catholic Exclclopedia under "cross" gives a discussion of ancient meanings of various shapes of crosses (representing various natural phenomena) etc. However it then follows with a comment (which I hope to type in) that apprently unrelated to these symbolisms is the use of the cross in other cultures as a means of punishment.
"Because of its cruelty, crucifixion was intended as both a severe punishment of the victim and a frightful deterrent to others. . . . From the Persians this method of execution spread to other peoples, the Phoenicans, the Egyptians, the Grecian colonies, . . . the Carthaginians, and the Romans. Among the last, crucifixion was practiced with great abandon whenever the occasion seemed to warrant it." New Catholic Encyclopedia p. 485
The fact that crosses had a symbolic/religious signifigance in some ancient cultures did not preclude its being used "with great abandon" by the Romans as a means of punishment. Since the crucifixion account in the various Biblical witnesses follows exactly the practice of Roman crucifixion at that time, the mere fact of previous symbolic/religious significance (in some cultures) of the cross, does not disprove the historicity of the crucifixion of Jesus Christ under Pontius Pilate. Especially since the Biblical witnesses (from diffent authors) are also backed up by secular witnesses.
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peacefulpete
I'm inclined to agree with you about innana's hanging on a stake for 3 days then returning to life. It sounds like the word is vague and may refer to a protruding nail or spike.
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peacefulpete
an interesting comment posted at the Jesus Mysteries Forum bearing on whether the earliest christian had Jesus die upon a cross... I would like to suggest that the form of execution of the mythical god man Jesus underwent significant revision in the early centuries CE. It has been argued that the so-called pre-Pauline hymn of Phillipians 2 shows evidence of "death on a cross" (2:8) is an interpolation. The original death of the mystery god man may not have been on a cross at all. According to Gal. 6:13, Jesus was executed on a tree (xylon). Even more empahtically, Acts 5:30 "whom you had killed by hanging him on a tree." Also Acts 10:39, 13:29, 1 Peter 2:24. These texts are remarkable, in that Acts and 1 Peter have been shown to be late second century compositions and confusion still reigns in the means of execution. It is not at all clear the meaning of the mysterious stauros when applied to the alleged execution of Jesus. It has been noted that the unadorned cross is not represented in Christian art before the 5th century. There seems to have been an evolution in the Roman form of execution. The English "cross" comes from the Latin crux, not Greek stauros. This Greek could as easily mean impalement on an upright stake as nailing to the traditional cross. Even when we come to crucifiction proper, there were many variations: Video istic cruces ne unius quidem generis sed aliter ab aliis fabricatas: capite quidam conuersos in terram suspendere, alii per obscena stipitem egerunt, alii brachia patibulo explicuerunt; uideo fidiculas, uideo uerbera, et membris singulis articulis singula docuerunt machinamenta: sed uideo et mortem. Sunt istic hostes cruenti, ciues superbi: sed uideo istic et mortem. Non est molestum seruire ubi, si dominii pertaesum est, licet uno gradu ad libertatem transire. Caram te, uita, beneficio mortis habeo. Lucius Annaeus Seneca (Of ad Consolatione Marciam) XX.3 "I see *crosses* there, not just of one kind but made in many different ways: some have their victims with head down to the ground; some impale their male genital member; others stretch out their arms on the gibbet." Also Josephus "So the soldiers, out of the wrath and hatred they bore the Jews, nailed those they caught, one after one way, and another after another, to the crosses, by way of jest.." (Josephus, Wars, Book 5, 11:1) When one reads the traditional apologies for the cross, one notes an inconsistency in that sometimes the cross is supposed to be the entire cross, pole and beam; sometimes just the pole, and sometimes just the cross beam. It is interesting to note that the earliest Christian depiction of the crucifiction (the doors of the Basilica of Santa Sabina) shows Jesus and the two thieves crucified, not on a cross at all, but on building scaffolding. John Abrowus JesusMysteries Home Page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JesusMysteries
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hooberus
an interesting comment posted at the Jesus Mysteries Forum bearing on whether the earliest christian had Jesus die upon a cross... I would like to suggest that the form of execution of the mythical god man Jesus underwent significant revision in the early centuries CE.
If Jesus was a mythical god man then why doe secular works such as Encyclopedias say things such as: "in about AD 32 Pontius Pilate had Jesus of Nazareth put to death by crucifixion." Encyclopedia Brittanica Micropaedia Vol. 3 p.762 ?
It has been argued that the so-called pre-Pauline hymn of Phillipians 2 shows evidence of "death on a cross" (2:8) is an interpolation.
What is the supposed evidence for it being an interpolation? Besides, the word cross is also found later on in Phillippians. "(For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)" Phillippians 3:18-19
The original death of the mystery god man may not have been on a cross at all. According to Gal. 6:13, Jesus was executed on a tree (xylon).
The word "tree" refers to the wood from which the cross was made of. (compare Galatians 3:13 with Galatians 6:14) "Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:" Galatians 3:13 "But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world." Galatians 6:14 The word tree is applied to the cross (without denying the cross) because of its fullfillment of Deuteronomy 21:22-23. "And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree: His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God;) that thy land be not defiled, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance."
Even more empahtically, Acts 5:30 "whom you had killed by hanging him on a tree." Also Acts 10:39, 13:29, 1 Peter 2:24.
The same people who gave the sermons in Acts using the word "tree" also said that Jesus was slain under Pilate (a Roman who crucified). Hense the word tree obviously refers to the fact that the Roman cross was made out of wood. Peter belived that Jesus Christ was a historical person crucified under Pilate himself a historical person. Acts Chapter 3:13; 4:27 (Peter's sermon's recorded by Church historian Luke.)
"The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go." Acts 3:13
"For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together," Acts 4:27
"The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree." Acts 5:30 Paul believed that Jesus was a historical person crucified under Pilate himself a historical person. Acts chapter 13:28 (Paul's sermon recorded by Church historian Luke). 1 Timothy 6:13
"And though they found no cause of death in him, yet desired they Pilate that he should be slain. Acts 13:28
"And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre." Acts 13:29
These texts are remarkable, in that Acts and 1 Peter have been shown to be late second century compositions and confusion still reigns in the means of execution.
There was no "confusion" over the means of execution.
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Leolaia
hooberus is right about the use of the word xylon as recalling Deuteronomy 21. This text was explicitly quoted in one of its instances in the NT (in the LXX), in the Dead Sea Scrolls the scripture is directly applied to a specific instance of crucifixion reported by Josephus, Josephus himself uses the two terms (xylon and stauros) to refer to the same thing, and Philo of Alexandria refers to those crucified (anastauroo) as affixed to a xylon. Second, in Greek xylon refers less often to living trees (Gk. dendron) and more often to wood products made from trees. Finally, in Latin crucifixion is informally known as arbor infelix or infelix lignum -- affixing to a tree. I thus do not necessarily see the use of xylon in the NT as suggesting a tradition where Jesus was affixed to a literal tree.
As for the tradition of the cross being X-shaped, when was this first attested? I don't know any evidence of this until A.D. 200 (?), and then it is with reference to Plato and the name Khristos (X). The gospels unanimously refer to stauros-bearing, either Jesus himself (John) or with the help of Simon of Cyrene (Synoptics). That certainly is a reference to patibulum-bearing, which applies to a T-shaped cross but not to an X-shaped cross of two beams of equal length (in Greek, stauros refers to the patibulum as well). Jesus' saying on cross-bearing is a later reflection on the crucifixion, and this saying is shared in the Gospel of Thomas (55) as well. Pseudo-Barnabas and Justin Martyr also explicitly describe Jesus' cross as T-shaped. The pagan Palatine graffito also depicts Jesus' cross as T-shaped. My impression is that referring to the cross as a Chi, or viewing Chi as the symbol of Christ, is relatively late and derivative of the title Khristos. It seems to be an exaggeration to claim that there was "confusion" over the manner of Jesus' death simply because the term xylon was sometimes used and the letter Chi was later compared with the cross or regarded as the symbol of Christ.
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peacefulpete
Excellent post Leolaia. As I said I was not the writer of the post you responded to, it was from a John Abrows. I posted it here hoping for such a response. I'm neutral to the topic of whether the NT meant to depict Jesus as dying upon a cross. Altho I agree it seems the most likely. It is still is of interest to see the difference of opinion about the shape in early Church tradition. It does seem that some of the Church Fathers saw "history" as more ethereal than us today, willing to reinterpret it at will. This in my opinion adds to the mythical arguement indirectly. I hope you don't mind if I repost your comment at the Jesus Mysteries discussion as a rebuttal to Abrows.
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peacefulpete
Just another interesting article on the subject. I clipped it for the references to the history and shape of the cross.
By : Kaufmann Kohler Emil G. Hirsch
It may have developed out of the primitive custom of "hanging" ("arbori suspendere") on the "arbor infelix," which was dedicated to the gods of the nether world. Seneca ("Epistola," 101) still calls the cross "infelix lignum." Trees were often used for crucifying convicts (Tertullian, "Apologia," viii. 16).
Mode of Execution.
The crosses used were of different shapes. Some were in the form of a T, others in that of a St. Andrew's cross, X, while others again were in four parts, t. The more common kind consisted of a stake ("palus") firmly embedded in the ground ("crucem figere") before the condemned arrived at the place of execution (Cicero, "Verr." v. 12; Josephus, "B. J." vii. 6, ยง 4) and a cross-beam ("patibulum").......
Copyright 2002 JewishEncyclopedia.com. All rights reserved. -
hooberus
peacefulpete said: Hooberus..apart from your attribution of NT passages to fictional or then dead authors, your post had merit in determining the opinion and intention of early Christians. Forget the silly Encyclopedia references, they generally present popular opinion which in this case is rather redundant.
Paul and Peter were not fictional, and the book of Acts was definitely a first century work. Conservatives date it AD 62 "mainstream" Liberals AD 70-90. It was possibly quoted by Clement of Roman (AD95), as well as Ignatius (AD110).