I also understand that the nephilim were bullies . Some web sites claim that neanderthal man was actually the nephilim and think that they were even interestested in people as a food source because they have found some evidence of camp sites with remains of human bones that looked like they were eaten by the neanderthal . Although the angels were able to produce sperm to impregnate women the nephilim were considered to be a hybrid species unable to reproduce , according to the WTBTS. I don't think the hebrews encountered the nephilim in canaan when they arrived but there is believed to be a race of very tall people that inhabited the land . The human race does seem to be able to produce giants even without the angels as well as dwarfs . I think there was even some hobbits .lol As I am now going to see The return of the king . woooooooooooooooohooooooooooooooo .
A serious question about the angels that materialized pre-flood
by TweetieBird 48 Replies latest jw friends
-
-
Satanus
The wt is avertive of angelic creative abilities. I see no difference from the angels' supposed materialisations and god's supposed creating something out of his energy. None at all.
SS
-
Leolaia
According to the bible, the angels saw the daughters of men, materialized into human bodies and married the women, had children. Here's my question...did they create for themselves a human body or did they transform themselves into a human body that already existed?
The Bible does not say. Matthew 22:30 says that the angels of heaven do not marry, and since Jesus says this in connection with the resurrection of the body, the implication is that angels have bodies that do not permit them to marry. It may be that gender is a condition of the flesh and angels as spiritual beings are genderless. This is the view of the Jesus saying in Gospel of Thomas 22 and quoted in 2 Clement 12:1-6 which presents those who enter the Kingdom of Heaven as those who are "neither male nor female" (compare Matthew 19:11 which refers to those "who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven"). Isaiah 6:2 however does euphemistically refer to angels having male sex organs. There is also a thread of understanding in the NT that angels can assume human form. Hebrews 13:2 says: "Do not neglect to show hospitality to strangers, for by this some have entertained angels without knowing it." This is clearly a reference to the story in Genesis 18-19 (and Judges 13), which presents the angels as appearing fully human, able to eat and drink. There is also a similar story regarding the angel Raphael in Tobit 5-6. What is not clear is whether these angels really do have human form or only appear to. This uncertainty surrounded early beliefs about Jesus' body, with the docetists believing that the resurrected Jesus only appeared to have a physical body but was really a spirit, and the followers of Paul and John believing that Jesus was resurrected with his glorified fleshly body. Thus does Ignatius of Antioch (A.D. 110-117), writing to the church at Smyrna, state: "I know and believe that he was in the flesh even after the resurrection; and when he came to Peter and those with him, he said to them: 'Take hold of me, handle me and see that I am not a disembodied demon.' And immediately they touched him and believed, being closely united with his flesh and blood. And after his resurrection he ate and drank with them like one who is composed of flesh." (Smyrnaeans 3:1-3) The developing Christian doctrine of the incarnation, in wanting to keep Jesus' incarnation a unique event, would have leaned towards treating other angelic incarnations as inferior to that of Jesus.
The original text in Genesis 6 does not mention any incarnation, it simply says that the sons of God went to the daughters, chose, and married them. It was up to later Jewish tradition to work out how this supposedly happened. We know that word sarx "flesh" is explicitly used in Jude 7 to refer to the "different flesh" (Gk. sarkos heteras) that the people of Sodom and Gomorrah went after in the same way (Gk. ton homoion tropon) as the angels that sinned before the Flood (Jude 6). The words ton homoion tropon "in like manner" are critical to the understanding of this text. The people of Sodom lusted after angel flesh just as the angels lusted after human flesh before the Flood -- in both cases there is lust for "different flesh". Ergo, the angels in both cases had "flesh" (Gk. sarx). The next verse similarly links "defiling the flesh" (Gk. sarka miainousin) with "reviling angelic majesties" (Jude 8).
But since the angels had sarkos heteras "different flesh", their flesh was not the same as human flesh. This statement is reminiscent of 1 Corinthians 15:39-40 where Paul says: "All flesh [pasa sarx] is not the same flesh [aute sarx], but there is one flesh of men, and another [alle] flesh of birds, and another of fish. There are also heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of heavenly is one, and the glory of the earthly is another [hetera]." Here Paul uses the word allos "different, another" to refer to differences between the flesh of man, birds, and fish. This words means differences among a single type. But in contrasting the difference between heavenly and earthly bodies, Paul uses the word hetera, which means that something is entirely different. This is the same word that Jude uses to describe the difference between angel and human flesh. Jude's reference is to the miscegenation, the mixing of types forbidden in Leviticus, coupled with sexual immorality. In referring to the resurrection, Paul also says "It is sown a natural body [soma psukhikon], it is raised a spiritual body [pneumatikon]. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body" (v. 44). And while "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God" (v. 50), Paul makes it clear that spiritual resurrected bodies are glorified physical bodies.
Jude is directly dependent on the Jewish Enochian literature: Jude 6 derives from 1 Enoch 12:4, 15:3-10 (referring to the angels' abandonment of their proper abode) and 1 Enoch 10:4-12 (the binding of the angels with chains in dense darkness as they await Judgment Day), the linking between the angels that sinned and Sodom and Gomorrah in Jude 6-7 derives from a lost Enoch book quoted in the Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs, Jude 13 derives from 1 Enoch 18:14-16, 21:6 (disobedient "wandering stars" that have been imprisoned) and 1 Enoch 10:4, 17:6 (the "great darkness" of their prison), Jude 14 derives from 1 Enoch 60:8 (where Enoch is called the "seventh from Adam"), and Jude 14-15 is none other than a direct quotation from 1 Enoch 1:9. So to understand Jude, we need to look at what 1 Enoch says.
And indeed, the phrase "strange flesh" (sarkos heteras) has special meaning in 1 Enoch. The birth of the son of Lamech in 1 Enoch 106:5-12 explicitly refers to the child as having a "strange" or "different" (hetera) body, having the glory of angels (cf. 1 Corinthians):
1 Enoch 106:5-12
I have begotten a strange son: He is not like an ordinary human being, but he looks like the children of the angels of heaven to me; his form is different, and he is not like us. His eyes are like the rays of the sun, and his face glorious. It does not seem to me that he is of me, but of the angels; and I fear that a wondrous phenomenon may take place upon the earth in his days...his color was whiter than snow and redder than a rose, the hair of his head is whiter than white wool....He did not believe that the child was of him but of the image of the angels of heaven.
In v. 14 reference is then made to the angels having "united themselves with women and commit sin together with them; and they have married wives from among them, and begotten children by them, upon the earth they give birth to giants, not of the spirit but of the flesh." Unfortunately, 1 Enoch doesn't specifically refer to an incarnation and does not specify exactly how the angels were able to mate with the daughters of men. In the following text, it is not obvious whether reference is being made to the bodies of the angels. Did the angels "beget children ... with the blood of the flesh" of women, or with their own "blood of the flesh"?
1 Enoch 15:3-8
For what reason have you abandoned the high, holy, and eternal heaven; and slept with women and defiled yourselves with the daughters of the people, taking wives, acting like the children of the earth, and begetting giant sons? Surely you used to be holy, spiritual, the living ones, possessing eternal life; but now you have defiled yourselves with women, and with the blood of the flesh begotten children, you have lusted with the blood of the people, like them producing blood and flesh, which die and perish. On that account, you have taken wives in order that seeds might be sown upon them and children born by them, so that the deeds that are done upon the earth might not be withheld from you. Indeed you, formerly you were spiritual, having eternal life, and immortal in all generations of the world. That is why formerly I did not make wives for you, for the dwelling of spiritual beings of heaven is heaven. But now the giants who are born from the union of the spirits and the flesh shall be called evil spirits upon the earth, because their dwelling shall be upon the earth and inside the earth. Evil spirits have come out of their bodies.
Most likely, the reference to "the blood of the flesh" is to the human women they lusted after. But there is some indication that they have physically changed: God tells the angels that "formerly you were spiritual" and "you used to be holy, spiritual, the living ones," suggesting that they have taken mortal form. The same text also refers to their "seeds", suggesting again human form. Yet, the same passage also refers to the mutant giants as the abnormal result of "the union of the spirits and the flesh," suggesting to the contrary that the angels were still spirit and not really human. And the giants themselves were physically a union between spirits and flesh because "at the death of the giants, their spirits depart from their bodies" and their spirits are held in bondage for judgment, just as their angelic parents (1 Enoch 16:1). As for the angels, they did not die -- they were simply captured and bound in the abyss.
So I don't there is a clear picture in all of this. It may be that some viewed the angels as already male with male sex organs (cf. Isaiah 6:2) and coming down to have relations with human women without any human incarnation. 1 Enoch views the angels as still possessing angelic nature and glory, but having changed their form in some uncertain way. And then Hebrews suggests that angels can appear fully human so that people may entertain them unawares.
As an aside, in the Live Forever book, the incarnation of the angels is described as "some angels took bodies from flesh" (p. 93). This phrasing is very characteristic of LDS literature, where people are viewed as having a heavenly existence before birth (similar to Origen's view), where they say Adam and Eve "took bodies of flesh" (Council of the Twelve, 1860), or people "taking bodies of flesh and bones" (Pratt Discourse, 1879). This particular phrasing is very characteristic and I haven't found similar wording in Catholic or Protestant writings on the incarnation of the angels.
Leolaia
-
fearnotruth22
great post. I dont undrstand where the life passing sperm comes from seems,only from God since he is said to be the live giver and the source of life.Earth locked creatures can pass on life to descendants. Somehow angels rebeling fom from god also did his
-
Sentinel
Maybe these "sons of god" were other creatures from a prior earthy attempt to create man. Or perhaps other beings from the universe--alien beings/angels, who were made differently, had no need to procreate the way our species does, but were curious about our race. They weren't created to live on this planet, but stopped by, liked what they saw and decided to assimilate/obsorb themselves into human beings and mate with the females of our species. This genetic mixing of species didn't set well with the creator, so we are told. The offspring were giants, or just very large and powerful beings.
-
AlanB
Another interesting thread, perhaps if we understood this we would have a better understanding of our history, it all seems to come together at this point of Angelic/Nephinlim/Alien contact. Enoch is a good source of information on this subject and it is possible that Enoch was also known by other races of people post flood as Hermes (Greek god of knowledge), Thoth (Egyptian god of knowledge) and the Northern European Thor, all seem to be attributed to similar ideas and knowledge.
One theory I have read and studied is that very ancient Egypt was the 'Land of the gods' with the great Pyramids. This was where a higher race of people lived and it was these that did not so much materialise as went to the land of men to cohabit with the Women. It has been suggested that Enoch visited this land and was given his knowledge and that it was these 'gods' that gave mankind its knowledge.
One minute mankind are living in caves banging rocks together and the next they have a knowledge of advanced astronomy (some of which we have only uncovered in the last 120 years or so), mathematics, acountancy, irrigation, the calender (described in Enoch), cosmetics and the roots of most of our knowledge. How did thi shappen.
THERE IS SOMETHING WE DO NOT UNDERSTAND ABOUT OUR HISTORY.
Taking the christian view of the bible has not helped us, even though Genesis is a key book along with all the other 'Creation' stories from all the other cultures on earth.
A
-
imallgrowedup
In general, I'm not a big conspiracy theorist, however, if this particular one is true, it would explain "The Case of the Missing Skeletal Remains"
(from: http://www.burlingtonnews.net/giants2.html)
Ivan T. Sanderson, a well-known zoologist and frequent guest on Johnny Carson's TONIGHT SHOW in the 1960s (usually with an exotic animal with a pangolin or a lemur), once related a story about a letter he received regarding an engineer who was stationed on the Aleutian island of Shemya during World War II. While building an airstrip, his crew bulldozed a group of hills and discovered under several sedimentary layers what appeared to be human remains. The Alaskan mound was in fact a graveyard of gigantic human remains, consisting of crania and long leg bones. The crania measured from 22 to 24 inches from base to crown. Since an adult skull normally measures about eight inches from back to front, such a large crania would imply an immense size for a normally proportioned human. Furthermore, every skull was said to have been neatly trepanned (a process of cutting a hole in the upper portion of the skull). In fact, the habit of flattening the skull of an infant and forcing it to grow in an elongated shape was a practice used by ancient Peruvians, the Mayas, and the Flathead Indians of Montana. Sanderson tried to gather further proof, eventually receiving a letter from another member of the unit who confirmed the report. The letters both indicated that the Smithsonian Institution had collected the remains, yet nothing else was heard.
There are all kinds of similar "stories" like these on this site. Additionally, they have a link to another site dedicated specifically to "Giants". I haven't looked it over, but thought I'd give the link in case anyone was interested.
http://www.burlingtonnews.net/giants.html
growedup
-
Abaddon
Other than speculation on text's written by bronze-age goatherds (who, just like their contemporaries were writing stuff that sounds like trial scripts for Xena), and trying to explain events recounted in those texts (ignoring we scoff at similar stories in other mythic traditions), we have the... errr... .... evidence *cough splutter*... to consider...
http://www.timelessvoyager.com/THESONSOFGOD.htm
Strike one is the reference to Paluxy River tracks. These are a joke in scientific circles. Do some research people, we were fooled once, and that's excusable, but to be fooled twice is to start making a habit of it...
Strike two is stuff like this;
Sitchin points out that Malbim, a noted Jewish biblical commentator of the nineteenth century explained that: "in ancient days, rulers of countries were sons of deities who arrived on earth from the heavens, ruled earth, and married wives from among the daughters of man. Their offspring included heroes and mighty ones, or princes and sovereigns." This revelation suggests that Jewish theologians have realized in the past that other "deities" did in fact exist; but for obvious reasons have not endeavored to make this news known to members of their faith. Once the truth is distorted for such an extended period of time, one faces extreme persecution and opposition if one attempts to set it right again.
Wonderful how one can take a statement by a Biblical commentator that proves nothing, fail to laugh at the credulity of it, and use it to 'prove' something. Ah, reminds me of the 'good old days' when the Awake! was a credible science journal *snigger*.
Strike three is WHERE ARE THE BONES that would prove the existence of a giant sub-species or homonid species of humans?? Or aliens for that matter? I'm not talking about tall families or freaks, I'm talking about a species with Homo sapiens or greater intellectual development; there are plenty 'robust' species of pre-H. sap homonids, but as our ancestors were also pre-H. sap and basically had fire and sharp rocks at the time they existed, it seems streaching it to say a unbroken oral story-telling tradition has existed for over 500,000 years... as it's quite doubtfull 'speech' that would allow such transmission. exisisted then.
Oh, of course, that's right, god-hating scientists are in a conspiracy to hide any evidence of Biblical veracity... or maybe they dissolved in the Flood... oh, but hang on, that's ANOTHER myth... well? Whatever. Bones please. This site approaches being reasonable and asks the hard questions the other site doesn't mention, and has some interesting speculation on the spate of 'big bone' stories from the 19th C.
http://www.masonwinfield.com/ArchiveFiles/October%202002/Giant%20Skeletons%20Q&A.htm
Now, what about this site here?
http://www.burlingtonnews.net/giants.html
In my book, Living in the Light, I descibe these Ages and man's evolution more in detail, but in a nutshell we have as follows:
The Golden Age was the period when the First Race lived in the "Sacred Imperishable Land" which capped the North Pole. The forms of this Race were ethereal. They could walk, run, fly, and see objects at a distance. They were sexless and the principle of Kama had not yet been developed.
The Silver Age occupied the Hyperborean Continent. . The Greeks called it the "land of the gods," for it was the favorite abode of Apollo, the god of light, and its inhabitants were his beloved priests. The story of this Race is contained in the myth of Uranos, the King of the Second Continent. He personified the creative forces of nature, while his wife Gaea represented matter, the basis of all forms. According to the legend, Uranos produced giants and nymphs from drops of his own blood, suggesting the method of reproduction in this Race. He is said to have devoured his own children and to have been devoured by his son, indicating the fruitless efforts of unaided nature to create real men of mind.
The Bronze Age was inhabitied by the Third Race of Man in Lemuria. This Race was itself divided into three periods. The early Lemurians were sexless, producing their young by exuding drops of vital fluid, which formed an egg-shaped ball. The myth of Leda, whose twin sons were gestated in an egg, refers to this early method of procreation. Then came a cycle of bisexuality. Plato gives us a description of the Third Race at this point of its evolution. "Our nature of old," he wrote, "was not the same as it now is. It was then androgynous. Our bodies were round, and the manner of their running was circular. Hence Zeus divided them into two." Finally mankind became male and female, and since that time the reincarnating Ego has depended upon the union of the sexes for the production of its physical vehicle. *Adam and Eve and E DIN
At the beginning of the Fourth Round on this globe, every class of being was one-eyed. The "one-eyed Cyclops" of Greek mythology, those giants fabled as sons of Coelus and Terra, three in number, represented the last three sub-races of the Lemurians, for the two front eyes, as physical organs, did not appear until the beginning of the Fourth Race. The myth of Ulysses, who visited the cave of the Cyclops Polyphemus and destroyed his vision by means of a fire-brand, symbolizes the atrophy of the "third eye." The adventure of Ulysses with the pastoral Cyclops, a giant race, is an allegorical record of the gradual passing of the Cyclopean civilization of stone and gigantic buildings to the more physical and sensuous culture of the Atlanteans, which finally caused the "eye of wisdom" to disappear.
In the middle of the Third Race, the "lighting up of Manas" occurred. At the beginning of our evolution the Monad (the "vivifying agent" present in every atom in the universe) had been plunged first into the lowest form of matter, the mineral. Gradually, by the passage of the Life Wave through the vegetable and animal kingdoms, a superior form was evolved -- ready at last for the Host of Manasaputra whose destiny it was to incarnate upon this globe. Some of these mindless human forms were neither ready nor suitable for occupancy and remained destitute of higher knowledge until the Fourth Race. Into those forms which were half ready, a spark of intelligence was infused. Into those forms which were ready, the "Lords of the Flame" entered, kindling the germ of mind in the "mindless men" and adding to them the flame of their own Manas.
The story of the "lighting up of Manas" is found in the myth of the Titan Prometheus, creator of men. He first moulded a form which could stand upright, so that, while the animals looked down to the earth, man could fix his gaze upon the stars. When the form was completed, Prometheus lighted a torch at the chariot of the sun and gave the fire of mind to men. Enraged because this made of man a God, Jupiter chained Prometheus to a rock and sent an eagle to tear at the vitals of the suffering Titan. His destined deliverer, Hercules, told him how he could free himself from his bondage--I don't have to C&P any more of this rubbish to make my point do I? WHAt about this;
The Japanese narrate that when their forefathers, approximately 3 thousand years ago, came from the continent and invaded the isles, they found there long-legged, furry giants. These giants were called Ainu. The forefathers of the Japanese were defeated in the first encounter, but in the second encounter they were victorious.
You can meet the Ainu today. They are a distinct racial group in Japan. They are far hairier than the Japanese, and a bit taller. Yet three thousand year old propganda is taken as evidence of 'giants', with out a extant skeleton that would prove such a thing.
People believe what they like, will whine when asked to prove their beliefs, half the time expect you to share in their beliefs or get punished by some big skyman, and act superior because they think they are not having the wool pulled over their eyes. And now with the Internet you can have the untrammeled vomitus of their mentally deficient drivel delivered right to your hoime 24 hours a day. It seems the act of publishing a web page gives whatever you write some credibility to those who want to believe what you right.
To those that want to investigate what is real and what is cow-poo it's just sad and weird.
If people hesitated before believing the first dumb thing they liked the sound of the world would be a better place.
-
Leolaia
Great post!
The Japanese narrate that when their forefathers, approximately 3 thousand years ago, came from the continent and invaded the isles, they found there long-legged, furry giants. These giants were called Ainu. The forefathers of the Japanese were defeated in the first encounter, but in the second encounter they were victorious.
You can meet the Ainu today. They are a distinct racial group in Japan. They are far hairier than the Japanese, and a bit taller. Yet three thousand year old propganda is taken as evidence of 'giants', with out a extant skeleton that would prove such a thing.
This reminds me of the "Menehune" legends in Polynesia, where the original population of the islands were conceived as tiny elves who build all the mysterious stone works in the middle of the night. Truth is, the word originally meant "slave, serf" instead of "elf" and the Menehunes were just earlier settlers who were turned into slaves by the more recent arrivals.
By the way, did you know that Jesus is buried in Japan? There is another Japanese legend about how Jesus' brother Izikiro gladly lept onto the cross, allowing Jesus to catch a boat from Siberia down to Honshu. I know someone whose been to his tomb in the town of Herai (see, it sounds a little like Hebrew, no?)....
Leolaia
-
Yerusalyim
I was just wondering where the sperm came from to impregnate the women?
FROM THEIR TESTICLES!
I wonder why the society says these were fallen angels...since their offspring became HEROES according to Genesis.