Miniimizing 'Punishment' - marrying a non-JW (page 2)

stan livedeath

seems like the best thing that can happen for her. She will quickly see the truth about "the truth".

FFGhost

if it's simply the case of dear friends who love each other undeniably, eloped and were quickly married - wouldn't disfellowshipping be way overboard?

yes we 'fornicate' wonderfully and often

Missed this earlier.

One of the primary guiding factors to life in JW-world:

Any JW can be disfellowshipped at any time for any reason 3 JW elders agree upon.

That's not hyperbole.

If / when the JW elders find out you were "fornicating wonderfully and often" prior to marriage, she almost certainly will be disfellowshipped. JWs are disfellowshipped for failing to "demonstrate repentance" for what are deemed "serious sins" (and that most certainly fits the description). Doing it often, and not immediately confessing, will almost certainly be seen as "not repentant" *. That, and the elders will want to make an "example" of her to discourage other JW women from seeking non-JW mates.

Even if she never confesses and is never found out, she will be "informally shunned" as I wrote in my earlier post.

There is a 99.999% chance her life as a JW will effectively be over if she marries you.

Again, if she's fine with that, more power to you. But the loving thing to do on your part is to make sure she is making an informed decision.

* A note on the JW view of "repentance": JW elders are trained not to just accept the words "I repent" as evidence of repentance. You can swear up and down and back and forth and sob uncontrollably about how sorry you are- doesn't matter, JW elders are trained to not "fall" for that. They will look at the person's "life course" - in other words, does he / she demonstrate repentance by their actions? That's what I mean when I say they elders will almost certainly deem her "unrepentant".

MeanMrMustard

Here is a better question : Does she really believe this stuff? She is living with a worldly man, having sex often. Yet, she is a pioneer and wants to stay one?

There is a serious disconnect here. Perhaps the goal shouldn't be to minimize punishment. Perhaps the goal should be a break with the religion, after on honest reflection on what she really thinks.

DesirousOfChange

If you marry before anyone knows of it then there cannot be any suggestion made that she should end the relationship. Marriage (even to an unbeliever) is "sacred". However, she will be "investigated" by two elders to determine if there is cause for a Judicial Meeting over any "sin". Obviously, your fornicating (your word, I believe) is a "sin" in the JW rules (and elsewhere to many). Fornicating "often" without her ever confessing and ceasing her 'wicked way" will most definitely result in her being disfellowshipped. From recent Elders School, a person cannot be deemed repentant "immediately" once they are caught if they carried on the offense for an extended period of time. (Of course King David WAS repentant immediately when Samuel confronted him about Bathsheba.)

The only way she can avoid being disfellowshipped is by avoiding meeting with the Elders (which would surely result in her losing her pioneer position which she will lose anyway just by marrying an unbeliever), or by meeting with them and DENY DENY DENY any fornicating or unclean conduct and even any overninght sleepover even if there was NO fornicating. (Staying over night alone with a person of the opposite sex is circumstantial evidence of fornication). If she denies anything immoral (or in conflict with JW rules) ever occurred then the Elders cannot take any Judicial action as there are NOT "two witnesses" (or a confession) to wrong doing. You two will have to determine if she can lie her way out of it.

Note there is a scripture in Psalms which says to confess your sins to Jehovah alone. You might use that to convince her that she does not owe the Elders any explanation about your "sinful" relationship.

Good luck. You're involved with a person who won't leave their religion but sneaks around and breaks the most ardent rule that the religion has.

MeanMrMustard

Good luck. You're involved with a person who won't leave their religion but sneaks around and breaks the most ardent rule that the religion has.

Exactly. I would think this is the bigger issue. My guess is she doesn't really want to be in this religion, she is heavily PIMO, and has a bunch of social structures holding her there.

doasthouwilt: Either she's lying to you, or she's lying to them. Long term, she should be honest.

StephaneLaliberte

I know you are looking for the consequences, but I believe you are asking the wrong question. Like you, I’m agnostic, however, you need to work with HER logic and perspective of the reality she has constructed. Assuming you are being intimate, that would mean that she is cheating on her God. God has set a rule which she is vehemently breaking with you. Considering that God is supposed to be more important than anything else, including you, what does that tell you about her integrity? Integrity is not a word owned by religion. It also applies in marriage. By the fact that she’s pioneering, I’d assume that she strongly believes in a large portion of the teachings and thus violating her conscience when she gets intimate with you. That shows a severe lack of respect for her core beliefs and values.

You may believe that it is not such a big deal considering various Christian denominations where sexual immorality is tolerated, but for JWs, this is a very big deal, very big deal. Her ability to be doing this, without telling anyone, all the while pioneering is very telling.

She is not in a good place at all right now. She either needs to come to terms with the fact that she is not a JW and live happily ever after with you or she needs to stop doing what she is doing with you, confess, do things right by her faith, God and Religion. These sorts of decisions/changes will require lots of work on her end and this will require lots of time.

peacefulpete

If she has had feelings for you for years and has not after all this time ended one or the other relationship, nothing is likely to change. She will be tormented and divided, and you will never have her full love.

As brutal as it sounds, make her choose. Sorry mate but it may go either way, but then you will have clarity. If she chooses you she will need help unpacking the years of control and guilt.

BluesBrother

There is something very wrong about this . We are told this lady is living a double life as a respectable JW but having also a sexual relationship with her fiancé . She is lying to all her friends and ministers .

Should she marry she will continue lying to them by denying the prior relationship.

That is no basis for a happy life , even if she gets away with it.

doasthouwilt

Thanks to everyone who has replied so far, I have a busy work day ahead so will have little time to reply for a while yet, but there's a lot here to consider - much of which I already have considered and some that sheds new light. I will have more to say and ask. Much appreciated!

One quick reply . . . .

BluesBrother - well, we are not engaged, we never will be, we will elope on a moment's notice once we get a license in our state to do so. You are right that she's lying to her friends and ministers by not letting on but she would be, conversely, lying to herself by disallowing her natural feelings, inclinations and desires and that can't lead to a happy life either. This system she was born into creates a high likelihood of unhappiness - it almost insures some level of lifelong misery. It functions like a trap and you're damned if you do and damned if you don't. You are right that there's something very wrong about it - indeed!

Simon

Don't marry someone based on some crappy religion's rules.

If she doesn't believe it, she should quit. She's either a hypocrite or is lying to you. All she has to do is leave, it's pretty simple.

I get that people want to have their cake and eat it too, but that's not how things work. In the real world you make choices, and it sounds like she just doesn't want to choose so is having you do all the work.

Do you know for certain what her views are? Is it a trick to trap you into becoming a JW for her? Don't marry someone just to help them avoid making a decision.

Run ... run very fast.

Miniimizing 'Punishment' - marrying a non-JW

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