Miniimizing 'Punishment' - marrying a non-JW

by doasthouwilt 44 Replies latest social relationships

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  StephaneLaliberte

  lying to herself by disallowing her natural feelings

  Its not that simple. For instance, some people have a propension for violence. Its their natural inclination. They don't give into it cause they know its wrong. Its not because you don't give into natural feelings that you are lying to yourself. It simply means that you are keeping natural feelings under control to uphold your values.

  In the case of your girlfriend, she is either a) lying to herself by staying with the JWs who are adamant about values that she does not share or b) she is willfully breaking her own values. The second option is the scary one. When someone willfully breaks with their own values, then they are at the mercy of they desires and this could have disastrous consequences to them and their loved ones. I underlined willfully as this is what it is when someone does an action that violate their values over a long period of time. This is not the same as a one night stand where someone temporarily give in to their baser instincts; it happens! But not in the case of your lady. Sorry to be so blunt about this.
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  FedUpJW

  I am hoping that by doing so she can avoid being ‘marked’ or possibly ‘disfellowshipped’ once our relationship is no longer a secret and due to our already being married at that point. What I’m most wanting is input on details on what sort of ‘punishment’ she may expect once our marriage is public to all and input on what society elders can and cannot do over willful marriage of a baptized JW to an ardent disbeliever.

  She will be DF'd for the catch-all accusation of "brazen conduct" unless she manages to cry and plead for mercy, in which case the least that will happen is that she will be marked as unwholesome association and treated as if she were disfellowshipped until she has groveled enough, long enough to satisfy their vindictive attitudes. My question is, why do you either want to play by their rules?
  
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  FedUpJW

  Any JW can be disfellowshipped at any time for any reason 3 JW elders agree upon.

  That's not hyperbole.

  Those are the EXACT words my father, who was an elder truly deserving of the term shepherd said. He was pretty well hated by other "elders" for his realistic take on Da Troof.
  
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  Vanderhoven7

  On her current course, your girlfriend will end up being effectively shunned by her congregation whether she is disfellowshipped or not. Besides that, right now, according to her religion, she is a candidate for destruction at Armageddon. If she marries you on the sly and lies (fools the elders) about the ongoing intimacy prior to marriage, she will still be a candidate for destruction at Watchtower Armageddon.

  There is no way to win in this...unless she is willing to give up her religion which at this point will not save her anyway...and disassociate herself by letter from the religion. Then she can freely marry you. If the elders want to know why she is disassociating, she can say for private reasons...and it's no longer their business anyway.

  As a non-JW she will be shunned as an apostate...but then who cares.

  If she is not willing to give up her religion, your best bet is to terminate your relationship for her sake. You might want to encourage her to do some independent research into what I see as a controlling and unbiblical cult.
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  St George of England

  After a lifetime in this religion and still trapped because of family, let me tell you something. BTW my parents were baptised in the 1940's and little George was never going to school in this old system.

  Even if your GF manages to avoid being DF'ed (highly unlikely) and remains a pioneer (not a chance) what sort of married life can you expect? She will not want to associate with your "worldly" friends and you will definitely not want to associate with her JW friends. What happens come Christmas and birthdays? What happens when it is Regional Convention time? Does she go alone or do you tag along and go shopping while she is in the sessions? What happens if there is an emergency and one of you requires a blood transfusion?

  My simple piece of advice is RUN LIKE HELL! You will thank me one day even if I'm pushing up the daisies!

  George
  
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  DesirousOfChange

  You are right that she's lying to her friends and ministers by not letting on but she would be, conversely, lying to herself by disallowing her natural feelings, inclinations and desires and that can't lead to a happy life either. This system she was born into creates a high likelihood of unhappiness - it almost insures some level of lifelong misery. It functions like a trap and you're damned if you do and damned if you don't.~ datw

  Well, hell, where do I sign up for that? Why would anyone run like hell to get away from that kind of manipulation that's makes them unhappy, miserable, and trapped? In fact, wouldn't you want to VOLUNTEER to be a "full time" slave for them and help recruit other people suckers to join you in that miserable system?

  WAIT! All of us here HAVE quit volunteering for that system! And, all of here have laid a plan to RUN LIKE HELL to escape it. That doesn't mean some (or even most) of us don't have some misery or unhappiness, but at least we aren't trapped in the bOrg any longer.

  Good luck!
  
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  doasthouwilt

  Stephane - I'm not sure that comparing a propensity toward violence to one toward a loving relationship and all it entails is apt, but I understand the two things you are mentioning, and since I don't see her admitting to #1 entirely (though it is more the case, I would guess), there are nuances to #2:
  
  She does find value in our relationship and all it entails and that it's lasting / ongoing - it is GOOD she's said and once even admitted that it was RIGHT & CORRECT. Our shared love is, I'm quite sure, to both of us, a large and important part of our 'values' and willfully breaking with her values doesn't have to be exclusively one or the opposing other, however, the former is natural and a matter of self-discovery while the latter was imposed on her from the beginning of her life and is driven by coercion and thug-like threats, much as she may or may not recognize that (just yet, I like to hope). You can feel allegiance to both and it WOULD make one torn, but I believe that the 'values' that are truly and wholly your own are the ones you don't need to be instructed to respect and her personality would suggest the same - she really is no good at abiding by the other, imposed 'values' - our relationship is one of several things that would be a problem in her behavior, if discovered, and she's quite willing to ignore the other 'disobedient' things she does, mainly, I'd say, as those are much easier to hide in the long-run. So, she's willfully breaking her "own" values in either case, though I hope those she comes by on her own are the ones that matter most of the two.
  
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  Nephilim87

  Bottom line here is that sex before marriage is forbidden. This is a Bible teaching. Everyone can agree on that. The org seems to be taking a lot of shots on here when they are just upholding Bible teachings.

  The world has changed a lot. This rule must seem ridiculous to a regular person. But this is what it is. And she signed up for this and so did you when you got involved with her. I understand the heart wants what the heart wants but she could have informed the elders about your relationship and stayed away from fornication before you got married.

  With her pioneering and then behind closed doors doin this, it’s just hypocritical. And believe me I’m not here to judge her. She really must be torn. And I feel for her. I hope you both can come to the best decision for each of you.
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  doasthouwilt

  I should add that she had been disfellowshipped* once many years ago, for reasons unrelated to being unequally yoked, sex or the like. She moved in with her BF of the time shortly thereafter and went on to marry him - they had a child and were together for many years. Sometime between the marriage and subsequent divorce she decided she was repentant and was refellowshipped (?). I believe she was scared back into it due to 9/11, or so a mutual friend told me - I had little communication with her for a few years which happened to be during that time.
  
  This fact is part of what makes me think that marrying her does offer some hope as, if she's not going to end it between us and not going to skip out on the society, there is middle ground where, though she'll face some sort of scolding perhaps DF'ing, we would end up together openly while maintaining an ability for her to rejoin at a later and more timely moment in her life (though she does think the world is coming to an end any moment now - of course). Someone earlier said that she'd be frowned upon for marrying a disbeliever and that if that person didn't then show interest in joining the, um, flock, that she'd bear some brunt of her mates disinterest. That did not happen in the case of her and her ex-husband. He was / is an atheist, happy in that conclusion and unable to be swayed. Despite this, her JW friends were friends of them both once she was reinstated. Perhaps the people at her KH are just not the best at being JW's or perhaps they're truly kind - I don't know how much this varies hall to hall.
  
  It's probably evident that I have no respect for this society, I won't expound on that as it's beside the point, but I DO care about her, do respect her and do not want her to come to harm at their hands, much less have me be part of the reason. Much as I'd jump for joy if it were the case, I can't simply tell her to forsake what she's bought into (or was scared into) and 'truly believes' to one degree or another then have it happen, so I'm looking for damage control and if we're to have both scenarios in any way at all, I can't think of another possible way of softening the blow & maintaining the relationship beside marriage.
  
  
  * I find it none too ironic that spellcheck suggests "horsewhipped" for "disfellowshipped"
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  Diogenesister

  FedupJW Those are the EXACT words my father, who was an elder truly deserving of the term shepherd said. He was pretty well hated by other "elders" for his realistic take on Da Troof.

  These, for me, where the most dangerous people.....the ones that brought me in to the religion. The ones who were so utterly good that wherever they were, that is where I wanted to be. Not the doctrine. Not the social life. Wherever those saintly people where *had* to be where God was at.

  .......and speaking of which DATW, there's many a reason for a dub being a dub! Your girlfriend may, of courses have family she doesn't want to be separated from (not least her Son which I think some may have missed). One major reason your GF may be able to cope with her lifestyle is compartmentalisation. Its something all JWs do to a greater or lesser extent. It's a coping strategy she's learned over the years.

  I'm hoping the elders cut her some slack and make allowances for the lack of single brother right now (even Watchtower has made mention of it). If the Cong Is judgemental after your marriage, it may help to wake your wife up ,- as lack of love, rather than doctrine, is often the motivation for researching the religion in the first place.

  Neph87 I understand the heart wants what the heart wants but she could have informed the elders about your relationship and stayed away from fornication before you got married.

  Kind of this ^^^Of course, you guys could bite the bullet and actually invite the JWs to your wedding?!! Just bluff it out, act like the adults in the situation and say all are welcome but it's going ahead regardless....just an idea. I'd be interested to hear if anyone has experienced that and whether elders can actually forbid you from the religions point of view, to marry ? (supposing you're 'scripturally free' to do so). Any elders out there care to chime in on this please?