Who Was Cain Afraid of?

by patio34 25 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • aChristian
    aChristian

    : However, it does seem certain to me that mankind is far, far older than the Bible allows.

    Bible chronology seems to indicate that only about 4,000 years passed between the creation of Adam and the birth of Christ 2,000 years ago. But paleontologists, anthropologists and archaeologists all assure us that mankind has lived on earth far longer than 6,000 years. For instance, anthropologists date the first settlement of the Americas by modern men to 15,000 B.P. (Before the Present) and their first settlements in Australia to 35,000 B.P. To explain this apparent conflict between well established science and scripture some Bible believers have suggested that there may be gaps in the Genesis genealogies and that, if there are, Adam may have been created by God near the time scientists tell us modern man first appeared on earth. However, such an explanation does not solve the apparent conflicts here referred to because the same scientists who tell us modern man has been around for at least several tens of thousands of years also tell us that the things the Adam and his direct descendants were involved in did not take place anywhere on earth prior to 10,000 years ago. These things include raising crops, herding animals, forging tools of copper and iron and building cities. (Gen. 4)

    I believe this seeming conflict between Bible chronology and well established human history is easily resolved by understanding that the Bible does not tell us that Adam was, in an absolute chronological sense, "the first man." I believe that God simply used Adam and Eve, and orchestrated the events in Eden, to illustrate the unrighteous condition of all mankind. ( This understanding also answers the often asked questions, "Where did Cain get his wife?" and "Who were the people living in the land 'east of Eden' whom Cain was afraid might kill him?" Gen. 4:14-17 )

    The only place in Scripture Adam is referred to as the "first" man is in 1 Cor.15:45-47. There Adam is called "the first man." But there we also find that Jesus is called "the second man." The context shows that the writer of those words was referring to Adam as the "first" man only in his relative chronological position to Christ. In other words, since Adam came "first" and Christ came "second," Adam came before Christ.

    Some may object to this understanding, pointing out that Genesis 3:20 tells us "Adam named his wife Eve, because she would become the mother of all living." However, a careful reading of Genesis 3's context shows us that Adam did so only after God prophesied that He would raise up a Savior and that He would count that Savior as Eve's descendent. (Genesis 3:15) Since everyone given eternal life by God will call that Savior their "Eternal Father" ( Isaiah 9:6 ), Adam could truly say that Eve "would become the mother of all living." For she was the one God said would be counted as the original human ancestor of that promised Savior and "Eternal Father."

    Some may also point out that their Bible tells them that God "made from one man every nation of men." (Acts 17:26) However, the words "one man" do not appear in Acts 17:26 in any ancient Bible manuscript. Most ancient manuscripts simply say that God "made from one every nation of Men." Other ancient Greek manuscripts, from which this portion of the Bible is translated, tell us that God "made from one blood every nation of men." For this reason The Amplified Bible here reads God "made from one [common origin, one source, one blood] all nations of men." The New English Bible translates this verse to tell us that God created every race of men from "one stock." So, Acts 17:26 can only be used to confirm that all people on earth are descended from ancestors who came from the same gene pool, and that all people on earth have the same original source of origin, a teaching which fully agrees with the findings of modern science. This verse does not say, in any Greek manuscript, that mankind's common origin was one man.

    Most other objections to this understanding of scripture come from those who adhere to the doctrine of "The Fall" of mankind. This doctrine is based on what I believe is a misunderstanding of the apostle Paul's words in Romans 5:12-20 and 1 Corinthians 15:21,22.

    I do not believe the Bible teaches that mankind "fell." Rather, I believe it tells us that God originally created the human race as free people. Free to do both right and wrong. In the exact same way we are free to do so today. Unfortunately we often choose to do what is wrong rather than what is right. God, however, cannot do wrong. For God is "Incorruptible." (Romans 1:23) So, because we can and often do behave unrighteously, and because God cannot and never does behave unrighteously, we are less righteous than God. And, because "all unrighteousness is sin" we are all born "sinful". (1 John 5:17, New American Standard Bible; Psalms 51:5)

    Being able to do wrong, Adam was, from his very beginning, also less righteous than God. And he later proved his "sinful" condition by his behavior. Because Adam in paradise could not manage to obey one simple command from God, he clearly demonstrated that he and the entire human race, including those who had lived before him and those who would live after him, were far less righteous than God.

    So, with these things in mind, Paul accurately referred to Adam when he wrote, "By one man's disobedience many were constituted sinners." (Romans 5:19, Amplified Bible) This is true because Adam's disobedience demonstrated that the entire human race was not only capable of doing wrong but incapable of not doing wrong. So, after Adam failed a simple God given test of his righteousness, God had good reason to retroactively condemn the entire human race as being deserving of the deaths they had been suffering, and undeserving of eternal life, a gift God had not yet given to any human being.

    I believe those who adhere to the doctrine of "The Fall" misunderstand the events which transpired in Eden.

    The Genesis account clearly indicates that Adam and Eve were created mortal with a dying nature just like us. The story of Adam and Eve told in Genesis makes clear that their being able to live forever was not a part of their original physical nature. Rather, Adam and Eve's ability to live forever depended entirely on their eating from a tree "in the middle of the garden" of Eden, "the tree of life". (Genesis 2:9) Genesis tells us that Adam and Eve were going to be allowed to eat from that tree only if they passed a God given test, a test which we are told they failed. After failing that test God expelled Adam and his wife from the Garden of Eden and prevented them from eating from "the tree of life."

    Genesis indicates that had Adam and Eve been allowed to eat from "the tree of life" their lives would have been prolonged indefinitely. (Genesis 3:22-24) But when God prevented them from eating from "the tree of life" they died what were apparently natural deaths. A careful reading of the Genesis account shows us that living forever would have been as unnatural for Adam and Eve as it would now be for us.

    Genesis does not indicate that Adam and Eve originally had eternal life programmed into their genetic codes by God and later had their genetic codes reprogrammed by God in order to remove eternal life from those codes. Rather, Genesis indicates that Adam and Eve would have lived forever only if God had graciously given them eternal life from an outside source, "the tree of life."

    I believe that "tree of life" was meant to picture Jesus Christ.

    For, as we have seen, God was going to give Adam and Eve eternal life from an outside source, "the tree of life," only if they passed a very simple test. And the Bible tells us that we will be given eternal life from an outside source, Jesus Christ, only if we pass a very simple test. That test is to simply believe in our hearts that Christ's death was sufficient payment to buy every human being God's full forgiveness, forgiveness for both our sinful nature and our sinful acts.

    I see no other way to understand the Bible's story of Adam and Eve. And the traditional concept of "The Fall", I am convinced, is in conflict with several clear teachings of scripture, proven science and a natural reading of the events which took place in the garden of Eden.

  • SixofNine
    SixofNine

    Nice try Achristian. The much simpler explaination is that the Bible was made up as the Isrealite leaders went along, to make whatever point/explaination they felt needed to be made.

    Now see, doesn't all that wacky stuff just fall into place?

  • pomegranate
    pomegranate

    aChristian...

    I believe you are close to the truth. But, I think it is even simpler as Romans 5 brings out.

    Rom 5:20
    20 The law was added so that the trespass might increase.

    Most think that the "law" referred to in Romans 5 is the Mosaic Law. I believe that understanding to be erroneous. The whole context of Romans 5 from verse 12 on is about Adam and his plight, and the contrast with Jesus and his redeeming.

    That mistaken understanding comes from here:

    Rom 5:12-14
    12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned- 13 for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.

    Just because verse 14 mentions Moses in a timespan, people incorrectly understand the law in verse 13 to be the Mosaic Law. That is wrong. Why? Verse 12 and the beginning of verse 13 are the same sentence. The context of a sentence never changes in the middle. The context in the beginning of the sentence is about Adam, so the law at the end of the sentence has to be about Adam. Adam only had one law, the law of the tree. That law Paul is talking about is the law of the tree. Also, Adam had nothing to do with the Mosaic Law, ever. Why would anyone bring in the Mosaic Law into a discussion about Adam's sin? Again:

    Rom 5:20
    20 The law was added so that the trespass might increase.

    There's and old saying, "Laws were meant to be broken." Satan was a corrupting influence...Adam and Eve were going to get soiled regardless of how "Good" a creation they were. The law of the tree was meant to be broken, so sin would increase.

    Now, let's look at it closer:

    Rom 5:12-14
    12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned- 13 for before the law was given, sin was in the world.

    BEFORE the law of the tree was given, sin was already in the world. How can that be if nothing was eaten yet? Satan was already on his sinful rampage in the heavens. But why didn't God destroy Satan right away and stop the corrupting influence?

    Rom 5:13
    But sin is not taken into account when there is no law.

    There were never any laws in heaven. There was never any bad in heaven. When there is no bad there is no law as law is put in place when bad EXISTS.

    OK. So bad now exists in heaven as Satan is in sin. Bad is in heaven for the first time. Why couldn't God make a law in heaven against what Satan was doing, before Adam and Eve, so that he could be destroyed before he corrupted?

    I believe it has to do with Satan's sinful claim, "I am a god." That was and is a very real claim. A claim that was real to the Creator. What was the definition of God in the heavens? What constitutued being god? Could a spirit creature claim independent godship for himself and not have any repercussion from the Creator? Well, there was no law against it...as a matter of fact there was NO LAW PERIOD!!
    Since Satan sin began claiming his godship, the Creator had to deal with Satan how? As another god. A false god, but a god just the same. Can one god make law on another god? How about this...in order for Satan to die, he had to be guilty of a law that would convict him to death....

    Again the Bible is IMPLICIT:

    Rom 4:14-15
    15 because law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.

    Law brings wrath. ANY LAW. ALL LAW. Why? Because they will be broken...Again the Bible says, where there is no law, there is no transgression. Satan was free to claim godship, because there was no law.

    The battle in the beginning was the true God (Creator) against a false god (Satan), and the Creator's plan to rid the creation of a false god. It had to be done legally with justice in wisdom.

  • patio34
    patio34

    Pomegranate and A Christian,
    Very erudite posts!

    Six,
    I'm more in your ball park as far as belief about the Bible!

    Pat

  • AGuest
    AGuest

    May you all have peace!

    What an intriguing question! And Bobsy is closest to the truth: Cain was in fear of the 'avenger' of death, which avenger was always a family member. Such one was OBLIGATEDt to go after the murderer and put him/her to death. That is why the 'cities of refuge' were later constructed for Israel. For Cain said, "Anyone FINDING me, will kill me" and Numbers 35:19 says of the avenger, "When he CHANCES upon him (the murderer) he himself will put him to death."

    Someone also stated that there was no law in heaven. Actually, there WAS law in heaven... AND on earth. But such law was 'oral'... and not yet 'written'. Indeed, if there was no law, Satan COULD have became haughty and unrighteous with no consequence. And he COULD have 'misled' Adam and Eve, with no resultant cursing. If there was no law, then Adam and Eve COULD have eaten with no consequence. Cain COULD have killed Abel with no consequence. Joseph COULD have slept with Potphar's wife, Noah COULD be seen naked and Ham would not have had his son Canaan cursed, Moses could murder an Egyptian and not have to flee for his life. And so on and so on.

    The PROBLEM was that Israel, when in the wilderness, couldn't KEEP the oral law. So, it had to be written. And they failed in keeping that, for the most past, too, although unlike Job and US... they were protected from Satan. HE was not 'in the wilderness' with them. They were being led by holy spirit and thus sinned on their own.

    Dear ones, good AND bad DID exist before creation. In fact, when completing His creative days, my Father THEN said 'it was good'. Otherwise, Adam and Eve could not be 'like' God... KNOWING good and bad... for indeed GOD would not have known it.

    With regard to the Sumerians, ACTUALLY Hebrews are direct descendants of the Sumerians. The garden of Eden was located in the Mesopotamian Valley, the greatest city and region of which was ... Sumer.

    The name 'Sumer' is derived from 'Shemer'... for it was the land settled by the descendants of Shem. Shem went south into what is known as Babylonia. Japheth went southEAST and his descendants are those who are primarily mongloid or Asian/Indian. Ham, went southWEST, and his descendants are those who are primarily negroid or dark African.

    The descendants of Shem, however, went directly south and from these derive those who are Shemite... or SEMITE (Semitic)... and from whom those that are angloid derive. That is why although appearing Mediterranean and Middle Eastern to some degree, many, if not MOST Jews... appear white.

    Technically, then, Adam, Eve, Cain, Abel, Enoch... and all the way to Noah... were 'Sumerians'... as the land they hailed from later took on that name. Ararat, the mountain on which the Ark was said to have landed, is in the upper region of Mesopotamia, just above the north end of the valley. So, Noah didn't really 'float' that far. South of Ararat, in the center of the Mesopotamia Valley, at the point where the Tigris and Euphrates meet, is where the 'garden' of Eden first set down. Just south of THAT... is/was the land of Sumer.

    I hope this helps and I bid you all peace!

    A slave of Christ,

    SJ

  • pomegranate
    pomegranate
    Someone also stated that there was no law in heaven. Actually, there WAS law in heaven

    1 John 4:8
    God is love.

    1 John 4:16
    God is love.

    Creation before Satan:

    Gal 5:22-24
    22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

    Creation after Satan:

    Gal 5:19-21
    19 The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

  • waiting
    waiting

    hey aGuest,

    : Cain was in fear of the 'avenger' of death, which avenger was always a family member. Such one was OBLIGATEDt to go after the murderer and put him/her to death.

    This was waaaaay before the Mosaic Law code or even those ethics were introduced. I've read no where an obligation on anyone's part before the Law Code existed.

    hey Six

    The much simpler explaination is that the Bible was made up as the Isrealite leaders went along, to make whatever point/explaination they felt needed to be made.

    Much simpler. That way we don't have to worry about why a sheep's fatty parts were so pleasing to God, particularily since Cain & family didn't eat animals. For that matter, how would they know about those fatty parts - by animals tearing each other apart? What. They go over and poke around with the left over carcasses? Fight the tigers off their kill? Or did they kill animals just to find out what was inside of them? Neither explanation seems plausible.

    Another poster made that point - and the point that the wool on the sheep would seem to be much more valuable. Those vegetarians could actually use it. Why was the fat considered valuable enough to be spoken of in Genesis 4:4?

    "But as for Abel, he too brought some firstlings of his flock, even their fatty pieces. Now while Jehovah was looking with favor upon Abel and his offering,"

    Now see, doesn't all that wacky stuff just fall into place?[/quote]

    Wacky, indeed.

    waiting

    ps - have no idea why the print size went nuts and the quote stuff isn't working right.

  • AGuest
    AGuest

    Dearest 'Pom and Waiting... may you both have peace!

    'Pom, your quote of Galatians 5:24 is correct: against 'such things' (as love, joy, peace, faith, kindness, mildness, goodness, self-control and long-suffering)... there IS/WAS no 'law'. Is not now, never was and never will be. HOWEVER, there IS, WAS and will ALWAYS be... 'law' against the 'acts of sinful nature'.

    For example, I ask you both... with regard to the angels... THAT SINNED, what 'sin' did they commit? What 'law' did they break?

    For violating what 'law' was the serpent, Satan, cursed?

    What 'bad' did God already KNOW... in order that if Adam and Eve ate from the Tree of Knowledge... they would become LIKE God?

    What 'law' did Cain break in killing Abel?

    Indeed, AS I STATED TO YOU... there was no WRITTEN law, but there WAS... and still IS... 'oral' law. Adam and Eve were given an ORAL law, were they not?

    If there was no 'law', and the only 'law' was the WRITTEN law, how then could Joseph consider havin relations with Potiphar's wife a 'sin against God'? Was there a law setting forth 'sin'?

    What you are misunderstanding with regard to the WRITTEN law, was its purpose... and intent. It's purpose... was 'to make sin MANIFEST'. Prior to the law, people knew what sin was. They knew that killing was wrong. Otherwise, what need would Moses have had to flee? BUT... God had His law WRITTEN DOWN, so that there could be NO misunderstanding... or misinterpretation... among the Israelites. He left the nations to their OWN laws. Israel, however, He held to, indeed COVENANTED into, His.

    The INTENT of the law, was to make 'sin' manifest... not to the judge, but to the SINNER. Why? So that such one would know and would SHOW... MERCY! How so? Because the law was not created so that Israel could condemn one another. The law was created so that each Israelite would know when HE or SHE sinned... and transgressed against another. It was created so that the Israelites would learn FORGIVENESS... and not condemnation.

    If I killed your bull, the Law said I had to give you mine. However, if you killed MY bull, the Law said you had to give me yours. The TRUE spirit of the Law, however, was that if you killed my bull... I WOULD FORGIVE YOU... just as I would want YOU to forgive ME... if I killed YOUR bull.

    Did you not hear how it was that my Lord 'fulfilled' the Law? He condemned NO ONE under it... although by sinning against the Law, and thus sinning against God, ALL had sinned against HIM! Yet, he FORGAVE them... and RELEASED them... from their debt to him and God. That is the lesson he wanted us to learn... to 'go on RELEASING'. Indeed, my Father 'released' Cain from his sin, did He not?

    And while my Lord went RELEASING... he also 'kept an eye on himself' so that HE... transgressed against NO ONE... including God.

    There has ALWAYS been 'law', dear ones. Indeed, it is by 'law' that the earth revolves where it does, as it does. It is by 'law' that the sun rises and sets each day. It is by 'law' that the fields give their produce. It is by 'law', that geese fly south for the winter.

    Law existed, dear ones, before creation. There were laws in the spirit realm that SAID spirit creatures could not reproduce with earthling man. The angels that 'sinned'... broke that law. Was that law 'written'? Is it now? No, it is not, at least not in THIS realm.

    You are limiting yourselves by thinking only of the things 'upon the earth'. You are, therefore, walking 'by sight' and not 'by spirit', and thus cannot see the things 'unseen', nor hear 'what the SPIRIT says.' But you do not have to continue this way. The invitation is open to you as well as to all of earthling man who so 'wishes' it, to:

    "Come! Take 'life's water'... the holy spirit of God by means of Christ... free!"

    Again, I bid you peace!

    Your servant and a slave of Christ,

    SJ

  • pomegranate
    pomegranate
    there IS, WAS and will ALWAYS be... 'law' against the 'acts of sinful nature'.

    Rom 4:15
    15 because law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.

    Rom 5:13-14
    13 for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law.

    Sin came first, law came second. Law is made for bad, bad has to exist first before law is mandated, as is stated in Romans 5. What is sin?

    1 John 3:4
    4...sin is lawlessness.

    Sin is NO control. It is anarchic. Satan was anarchy. Law is the control. The out of control comes first because of the ABSENCE of law, the control of law comes second, because God is a God of order and peace.

    For example, I ask you both... with regard to the angels... THAT SINNED, what 'sin' did they commit? What 'law' did they break?

    That's that whole point friend. Sin is LAWLESSNESS. When sin breaks law it is called TRANSGRESSION or TRESSPASS. The angels sinned before law.

    Rom 5:15
    For if the many died by the trespass of the one man,

    Adam broke the law, his sin was a tresspass. Adam was the first being created by God with law.

    Rom 4:15
    ...law brings wrath.

    That means ALL law. Even Adam's teensie law.
    Once the law of the tree was in place, the wrath of God was imminent as Adam WAS GOING TO SIN and God knew it. That's what the law was for...to be broken.

    For violating what 'law' was the serpent, Satan, cursed?

    Lawlessness, Satan was cursed for anarchy and lawlessness. He was in the Garden of Eden, someplace he had no business in being. He thumbs his nose at the God of order, and brings disorder and chaos.

    What 'bad' did God already KNOW... in order that if Adam and Eve ate from the Tree of Knowledge... they would become LIKE God?

    God came to KNOW the resistor himself. God came to KNOW "bad/evil" for the first time from eternity. Bad, anarchy and chaos was CREATED by Satan, and became KNOWN to God and all in the heavenly realm, by Satan brining it into existence. Adam and Eve then came to KNOW Satan as God came KNOW Satan.

    Indeed, AS I STATED TO YOU... there was no WRITTEN law, but there WAS... and still IS... 'oral' law. Adam and Eve were given an ORAL law, were they not?

    There is only ONE kind of law. It is oral. It is written down when the law becomes so complex (Mosaic Law) that it could not be remembered. Adams first law was a mere single statement. Oral. That's all that was needed. Before Adam's first law, NO LAW. Love needs no law, and that's all there was before Satan. LOVE and order.

    If there was no 'law', and the only 'law' was the WRITTEN law, how then could Joseph consider havin relations with Potiphar's wife a 'sin against God'? Was there a law setting forth 'sin'?

    Jesus answered your question a long time ago ORALLY:

    Matt 19:4-6
    4 "Haven't you read," he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female,' 5 and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh'? 6 So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate."

    Joseph would have violated the above. He knew that action as "sin" as it very well was, as defined from the beginning. Joseph would have violated God's "one flesh" arrangement. The second oral law from God.

    What 'law' did Cain break in killing Abel?

    Whatever God says is right and wrong becomes law:

    Gen 4:7
    But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must master it."

    Cain was told by God his evil intentions were sin BEFORE he did it. He broke the above law to "do what is right" and to "master" his sinful thought.

    The rest of your post is confusing at best...

  • AGuest
    AGuest

    ------------
    :>Rom 4:15
    "15 because law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression."
    ------------

    Then the angels didn't sin, Adam and Eve did sin, Cain and Moses didn't committ murder... and sin. Because according to you, there was no law. But you are in error in your understanding of this verse. It is saying WHERE there is no law, there is no transgression. These all 'transgressed'... because there WAS law. That is why the 'nations' weren't held to the same standard as Israel, for they did NOT have the Law written on stone to THEM. And yet, all of the nations will be 'gathered' before my Lord to be jugdged, yes? On the basis of what 'law'?

    --------------
    :>Rom 5:13-14
    13 for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law."
    --------------

    Again you misunderstand the verse. May I ask you, before the law was given to WHOM? The world? No, for the law was not GIVEN to the world. The nations? Nope. It was not given to the nations. The Law was GIVEN... to Israel. So, yes, before the Law the sin OF ISRAEL was in the world, but there was no PAYMENT for it by Israel, for they had not had the law WRITTEN... and then covenanted to OBEY it.

    Let me ask you... if there was no law... why was EVERYONE but Noah destroyed by the Flood? If there was no Law, for what 'sin' were they paying? What 'wrong' had they committed? Who SAID it was 'wrong'?

    -------------
    :>"Sin came first, law came second. Law is made for bad, bad has to exist first before law is mandated, as is stated in Romans 5. What is sin?

    1 John 3:4
    4...sin is lawlessness."
    -------------

    If SIN... came FIRST... then sin ALWAYS existed, even before Adam and Eve committed it! No, dear one... LAW came first... sin is TRANGRESSION against Law, and therefore sin is LAWLESS-ness. It is people conducting themselves WITHOUT law. Adam and Eve TRANSGRESSES... LAW... and acted WITHOUT law... LAWLESS... and therefore sinned. However, ABEL.. was LAWFUL. Enoch... was LAWFUL. Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph... were all LAWFUL. And yet, none of these had the Law... written. But in fact, they DID. It was not 'written' on stone tablets, but on their HEARTS, exactly where my Father put it.

    And He has PUT that law on ALL hearts. However... MANY conduct themselves AGAINST that law... and therefore, are lawLESS. Israel showed themselves to be 'lawLESS' by murmuring and complaining just the better side of the Red Sea. They showed that the law was NOT written on their hearts anymore, their selfish desire had ERASED it, as had Adam's, Eve's and Cain's... and so, since JAH could not write it AGAIN on their hearts... for their hearts were HARD... He wrote it on something as HARD as their hearts... stone tablets.

    Sin is indeed 'lawlessness'. And lawlessness... is disobedience. Disobedience... to WHAT?

    --------------
    :>"Sin is NO control. It is anarchic. Satan was anarchy. Law is the control. The out of control comes first because of the ABSENCE of law, the control of law comes second, because God is a God of order and peace."
    --------------

    Excellent point. Tell me, did Satan start OUT with anarchy? Or was he CREATED... WITH law... until 'unrighteousness was FOUND in him'? Again, what about the angels that did NOT sin? Did they not use self-control in order NOT to desire the 'daughters of men', the same as WE use it not to commit fornication and adultery? If there was no law, dear one, then ALL creation started OUT with no law... and thus, STARTED in LAWLESSNESS... and therefore, started IN SIN. But it did not. God 'set' things just where it pleased HIM... and created them just as it pleased HIM. And He SAID... it was 'good'. Sin and lawlessness... are bad. LawFULness... is 'good'.

    ------------
    Your quote of my quote and your response:

    :>"For example, I ask you both... with regard to the angels... THAT SINNED, what 'sin' did they commit? What 'law' did they break?

    That's that whole point friend. Sin is LAWLESSNESS. When sin breaks law it is called TRANSGRESSION or TRESSPASS. The angels sinned before law."
    ----------------

    Yes, and therefore, if the angels that sinned were lawLESS... what were/are the angels that did NOT sin? Uh, the word is 'lawFUL'.

    ---------------
    :>Rom 5:15
    For if the many died by the trespass of the one man,

    Adam broke the law, his sin was a tresspass. Adam was the first being created by God with law.

    Rom 4:15
    ...law brings wrath.
    ---------------------

    Hmmmmm... Adam was the first being created by God with law. I find that interesting. Tell me, who sinned first... Adam? Or Satan? Adam was TOLD not to eat from the Tree of Knowledge. What was Satan TOLD, that WE know of... that rendered HIM to be called a 'manslayer' and 'the FATHER of the lie'? Was deceiving Eve wrong? By what 'law'? Was leading Adam into his death and that of all earthling man wrong? By what 'law'? If Adam was the first being created by God 'under law'... why was the SERPENT condemned? What 'law' was he 'under', so that he should be cursed eternally?

    ------------------
    That means ALL law. Even Adam's teensie law.
    Once the law of the tree was in place, the wrath of God was imminent as Adam WAS GOING TO SIN and God knew it. That's what the law was for...to be broken.
    ------------------

    Again, you are in error. For all that is here... came out of what is there. And if there is law HERE... there most CERTAINLY is law there. For 'there'... existed FIRST. What exists HERE, is, in fact, a REFLECTION of that which was in existence LONG before us. JAH didn't HAVE to write down the law for spirit beings; they KNEW what it was... just as, in truth, most of US know what is 'lawful' and what is 'lawless'. However, quite apparently, not ALL of us can read 'the writing on the wal... uh, heart', and therefore, must SEE it written in STONE... or ink. And that is simply because... such ones walk by SIGHT... and not by spirit and faith.

    Ecclesiastes 1:8-10
    Ecclesiastes 3:15

    ---------------
    Again, your quote of my quote and your response:

    For violating what 'law' was the serpent, Satan, cursed?

    Lawlessness, Satan was cursed for anarchy and lawlessness. He was in the Garden of Eden, someplace he had no business in being. He thumbs his nose at the God of order, and brings disorder and chaos.
    -----------------

    And again, I ask you if Satan was CREATED in lawlessness? You may wish to review Ezekiel 28:15 before you answer. According to that scripture, it says he was FAULTLESS... therefore, PERFECT... therefore SINLESS... and therefore lawFUL.

    -----------------
    quote:

    What 'bad' did God already KNOW... in order that if Adam and Eve ate from the Tree of Knowledge... they would become LIKE God?

    God came to KNOW the resistor himself. God came to KNOW "bad/evil" for the first time from eternity. Bad, anarchy and chaos was CREATED by Satan, and became KNOWN to God and all in the heavenly realm, by Satan brining it into existence. Adam and Eve then came to KNOW Satan as God came KNOW Satan.
    ----------------

    Really. Was there no enmity BEFORE Adam's sin? Was there no 'division'? Indeed, there was, for JAH Himself PUT a division between the Light (John 8:12) and the Darkness (1 John 2:11; 2 Corinthians 4:4).

    ----------------

    quote:

    Indeed, AS I STATED TO YOU... there was no WRITTEN law, but there WAS... and still IS... 'oral' law. Adam and Eve were given an ORAL law, were they not?

    There is only ONE kind of law. It is oral. It is written down when the law becomes so complex (Mosaic Law) that it could not be remembered. Adams first law was a mere single statement. Oral. That's all that was needed. Before Adam's first law, NO LAW. Love needs no law, and that's all there was before Satan. LOVE and order.
    -------------------

    Order... dear one... IS 'law'.

    ---------------
    quote

    If there was no 'law', and the only 'law' was the WRITTEN law, how then could Joseph consider havin relations with Potiphar's wife a 'sin against God'? Was there a law setting forth 'sin'?

    Jesus answered your question a long time ago ORALLY:

    Matt 19:4-6
    4 "Haven't you read," he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female,' 5 and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh'? 6 So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate."

    Joseph would have violated the above. He knew that action as "sin" as it very well was, as defined from the beginning. Joseph would have violated God's "one flesh" arrangement. The second oral law from God.
    -----------------

    First, you are mixing two issues... marriage to one mate... and adultery. If the issue was one mate, then indeed, Joseph's FATHER, Jacob... who had FOUR wives... had 'transgressed law'... yes? But, he was neither judged nor condemned, was he? The ISSUE was that Potiphar had held NOTHING from Joseph... EXCEPT his wife... and for Joseph to take her would NOT have been only adultery... but COVETOUSNESS. Yet, where was the law against 'coveting' your neighbor's wife? Indeed, where was the law against adultery? It has not yet been written, yes? But Joseph KNEW it. Why was Jacob not guilty of adultery? Because ADULTERY... is having relations with a MARRIED woman. The women Jacob married and had relations with, belonged to no other.

    --------------
    quote:

    What 'law' did Cain break in killing Abel?

    Whatever God says is right and wrong becomes law:

    Gen 4:7
    But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must master it."

    Cain was told by God his evil intentions were sin BEFORE he did it. He broke the above law to "do what is right" and to "master" his sinful thought.
    ------------------

    Indeed, Cain had ALREADY committed sin... in his heart, yes? As James stated:

    "Then the DESIRE, when it becomes FERTILE, gives BIRTH
    ... to SIN. (But the ACT has not yet been committed,
    because he goes ON to say...); in turn, SIN, when it has
    been ACCOMPLISHED, brings forth death."

    What was Cain's initial 'sin'? His ANGER. There was and is 'law' against anger. Yet, Cain had not yet MURDERED. But Cain was DISCIPLINED for his sin of ANGER prior to his action, because his sacrifices WERE NOT ACCEPTABLE. If Cain was 'sinless' until he murdered Abel, JAH would have had NO reason to reject his offerings. Cain was ALREADY sinning... in his heart... which rendered him unclean ON THE INSIDE... which sin JAH saw... and warned him of the 'fruit' of that sin. Cain did not listen... IN HIS HEART... and carried out the FRUIT of that sin. He 'accomplished' his anger, and by relation his TECHNICAL murder of his brother, by killing his brother... LITERALLY.

    ----------------
    The rest of your post is confusing at best...

    ----------------

    Yes, I understand, for the saying is true:

    "For whom among men knows the thing of a man
    except the SPIRIT of man that is in him? So,
    too, no one has come to know the SPIRIT of God.
    Now, WE... RECEIVED... NOT the spirit of the
    world... but the spirit... WHICH IS FROM GOD,
    that WE might know the things that have been
    kindly given US... by God. These things WE
    also speak, NOT with words taught by HUMAN
    wisdom, but with those taught by THE SPIRIT,
    as WE combine SPIRITUAL... with SPIRITUAL.

    "BUT... a PHYSICAL man does not RECEIVE the
    things of the spirit of God, FOR THEY ARE
    FOOLISHNESS TO HIM; and he CANNOT get to
    know them... because... THEY ARE EXAMINED
    SPIRITUALLY. However... the SPIRITUAL man
    examines indeed ALL things, but he himself
    is not examined BY ANY MAN.

    "For 'who has come to know the mind of JAH,
    that he may instruct Him?' BUT... we DO
    have... the mind of Christ."

    Please know that my use of caps is not screaming or shouting, but purely emphasis as I do not know how to use html for purposes of bolding/italics on this Board. I understand WHY you don't see what I see... and hear what I hear, 'Pom. But, as I have said to you at least once before, it does not have to be that way. You can ALWAYS follow the admonition of Revelation 3:17, 18 and 22:17.

    BTW, my Lord has directed me to inform you that in that realm, there are 'governments and rulerships and principalities'... and they ALL exist by and under LAW. It is for transgressing law in THAT realm, which included conduct in THIS one... that Satan and HIS angels battled, lost, and were 'cast out'. It is for transgression of law in THAT realm, that the angels that 'sinned'... are confined in Tartarus. It is for transgression of law in THAT realm, that the PIT of the Abyss exists, to all those SPIRITS... who sin. If there was not law there... there would have been no 'transgression of law' there. There could NOT have been.

    Ephesians 6:12 (may I suggest you look this one up in the Greek also?)

    I bid you peace... and remain,

    YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,

    SJ

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