" Nobody knows the day or the hour..accept the father".

by gumby 21 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • gumby
    gumby

    I thought about 2 thousand years ago.....God gave Jesus a message to his son, who gave a message to John, and John supposedly records Jesus words in saying..........."behold, I come quickly".

    Is two thousand years quickly.....or am I missing something? Jesus words concerning his arrival were clearly meant for the ears of those listening and applied to them ....in THEIR time. It's obvious he didn't keep his word.........or....... someone SPOKE FOR HIM, and used words he never said himself, and it became bible canon. I vote for the last one.

    JC......you seem like a bright guy. No offence intended this time but........I still can't figure why you seem to drift off the deep end from time to time and claim to be christ. You know you don't believe that, so why do you say things like that?

    Gumby

  • heathen
    heathen

    I have the revelation book here. The WTBTS states that the tribes of the earth ignore the reality of jesus kingship and experience the wrath of God Almighty. Excuse me here but it says that they beat themselves in grief not are beaten til grief. I'm thinking it would be a good idea if they just started using the words , IN OUR HONEST OPINION, it sounds more to me that he has an unmistakable pressence that can be seen with the naked eye . I mean even symbolically they can't come up with a good exsplanation. The apostle paul claimed to have been blinded by the pressence of God . I don't see why today there couldn't be some sort of global pressence that gives them the impression of impending doom .

  • gumby
    gumby
    Excuse me here but it says that they beat themselves in grief not are beaten til grief.

    Heathen,

    That always bothered me as a witness.The society used that scripture and the one in the O.T. that says..."why did the nations become wrathful. The kings of the earth have taken their stand against gods annointed one".

    That always sounded so damn ridiculous to me. What ruler on this planet got mad because Jesus took his rule in 1914? Horseshit! They don't even have a clue about the dubs and their 1914 teaching.They never did and probably never will.

    Gumby

  • NeonMadman
    NeonMadman
    2) The "7 times" prpohecy, of course, well-known to Jehovah's witnesses established 2520 years from the fall of Jerusalem until the second coming. The fall of Jerusalem dated either in 607BCE, 587BCE or 529BCE gives you your pick: 1914, 1934 or 1992, respectively.

    Except, of course, that there is no "7 times" prophecy in the Bible, except in the fertile imagination of the Watchtower leaders. The 7 times was merely the period during which God sentenced Nebuchadnezzar to eat grass in the fields as punishment for his presumptuousness. There is no indication anywhere in scripture that this event was to be regarded as typological. Only in the Watchtower leadership's minds can God's punishment of a pagan king be seen as typical of His dealings with His own people. To force typology onto a text where none is indicated or authorized by scripture violates sound hermeneutical principles.

  • gumby
    gumby

    "Mene mene tekel and parsley"

  • City Fan
    City Fan

    Neon

    that there is no "7 times" prophecy in the Bible

    Exactly!

    Nebuchadnezzar was the beginning and end of that prophecy.

    Also, that story was originally about Nabonidus and is recorded in the Nabonidus Prayer found at Qumran.

  • heathen
    heathen

    I have to agree with you there. I can't see any reference to end time prophesy but it clearly says that God always ruled the kingdom of the earth unlike what the WTBTS says about God not ruling the earth after the fall of Judea . The whole thing was about nebuchadnezzar learning his place in the grand scheme of things , that God allowed him to grow great so that he could discipline the rebellious hebrew nation . This whole buisness of 7 times 360 and yadda yadda is complete fabrication .

  • JCanon
    JCanon
    JC......you seem like a bright guy. No offence intended this time but........I still can't figure why you seem to drift off the deep end from time to time and claim to be christ. You know you don't believe that, so why do you say things like that?

    I have no choice. I HAVE TO ADMIT IT if it comes up, so that later it can't be said that I denied it when asked directly. Sometimes I'd like to just discuss the topics and leave that detail out since it does distract, but I have no choice. As far as my believing it, sometimes find it too difficult to believe as far as my own experience but can't get past the scriptures involved. Even if I were not the Messiah, I'd be convinced, doctrinally, that he must arrive in 1992 and in the flesh. Remember when the WTS was debating whether Christ would come in the flesh or not? Further when I read Zechariah 3 and it shows high-priest Joshua now becoming king, thus the "king-priest" reference to the second coming, it shows him with "befouled garments" and specifically indicates these are past sins being forgiven and he is given new robes. If you do a simple comparison to the parable of the prodigal son where he must get new robes in a similar situation where god is honoring him with a banquet, otherwise associated with the wedding feast of the second coming, it's over. Add to that the differences in the wave offerings, the first without leaven and the second specifically WITH leaven, with the bread representing the body of Christ, and it also becomes clear the Bible implies Christ will appear in the body of an imperfect man at the second coming. I only confirmed this in the Bible AFTER my experience. I had been disfellowshipped before and out of the truth for a long time because of homosexuality then I came back in 1992 at the Memorial though I had been reinstated earlier. I got anointed that summer and thought I was just a special "prophet" doing this research and exposing the false teachings of the society. The JIOR, the secret members of the anointed that were assisting me and who I was providing this secret information were arranging for me to do this, I thought. That's what jumping into the dumpster was all about, it was supposed to hide my escape (I was supposed to exchange clothes with someone who would then be a decoy, etc.) But instead I went into a trance I guess and witnessed the "war in heaven" which was really just a court scene with Satan on trial for his crimes and he was condemned, only I was the chief witness. I had actually seen an aparition of Christ earlier, so I didn't really think I was him though I was beginning to wonder why there was such a focus by the secret organization on hiding me and getting this information from me. By now, though, I understood in the Bible that Christ would return in the flesh. After Satan was condemned and kicked out of heaven then I finally asked in a way...in my mind, wondering....."um, where is Jesus?" At that point I felt this RUSH and his entity just dropped down into my body and we became one. The next day in the afternoon I looked up and saw the "sign of the son of man" in the clouds, an infant lying on a cloud beside a dove and then a voice said: "This is my son, whom I have approved". So I became the Messiah. I wanted to go to Heaven right there and die, but it would not be.

    In the meantime, of course, I've proven the Bible's chronology is true via two astronomical texts which mysteriously survived and became apart of my attention. So so far, I';m fulfilling everything in scripture. Plus you can't get around the limited PHYSICAL REFERENCE to the Messiah of being the ETHIOPIAN EUNUCH. Hei s reading the passage in Isaiah 53 about the physical messiah at the second coming, not being that good looking, not having that great of a body and all that. The Ethiopian eunuch worked for the Queen of Sheba and thus was a civil servant. The JIOR (those waiting for the Messiah in 1992) related that to identifying the person chosen to be the Messiah who would be a black man, of an effeminate nature (gay) and who was a civil servant of some sort. So if I thought that, then I would be looking for the same type of person to become the Messiah. They also have to be related to the Rich Man's organization which is JWs. So it's hard for me to get out of not knowing, per the Bible that I'm really the Messiah, because that's really me. I'm not that good looking (no pinup), I'm black, a eunuch (gay), the whole 9 yards. Plus this event happend in the limited 4-month period it had to! PLUS seven years later the "sign of the son of man" appeared again and was photographed and I was given a copy of that photograph as a reference! Now that's REALLY HARD TO GET OVER! These specific images, identifiable in the "Revelation Book" which were taken on that specific date and time 7 years later by a woman claimining at the time to be one of my followers. It does not matter now whether she was or not, obviously this was a setup to get a witness to the date and time of this cloud manifestation. So I'd have to presume this was just a coincidence. It can't be.

    Plus, to fulfill Bible prophecy, the Messiah must "teach in the broadways" of some who would later want to get into the kingdom but who would be rejected as apostates. He must "strike the nations with the long sword of his mouth", meaning, he'd be teaching and dispensing information, only "in the clouds" that means indirectly. The "broadways" of the apostates in modern fulfillment are these JW or XJW discussion groups! Thus later those knowing these teachings would be able to claim: "You taught in our broadways...and we ate in front of you." So the Messiah is exposed to a small segment and is known to them, apparently friendly with him but still reject him as the Messiah. That additionally limits who can claim to be the Messiah though, because if there was another candidate, he'd have to be a black man who prominently posts things in the JW discussion boards and who also claims to be the Messiah. But I don't know of any others. So it's like, 1992 or BUST. This is it. If I'm not the Messiah then the Bible's prophecies failed.

    On the other hand, lots of people who reject the concept of the Messiah coming in this manner are not paying attention to scripture. When the Messiah is born in Revelation from the woman on the earth, this child is caught up to heaven. But it should be clear if Michael was in Heaven fighting Satan just before, there are TWO MESSIAHS at this point! One in Heaven, Michael, and one born from this woman on the earth, but that child is "caught up to heaven". The WTS got that message but can't accept it and specifically says in the "Revelation" book, this is not about TRANSMIGRATION. They actually understood and named it. That is, the concept that this child would become the Messiah via "transmigration" of the spirit of the Michael into this earthly child born from the woman who has a secret place in the whilderness where the Devil cannot fully reach her.

    So forget it... by the time you add all those scriptures together, whether you fixate on whether I'm actually the Messiah being referred to or not, you will be condemned for ignoring the Bible at this point and it's teachings since there is no way one could claim the Bible isn't showing us that the second coming Messiah arrives in the flesh via the use of another individual, clearly a sinful person, the prodigal son. Condemnation will not come from rejecting ME, but the SCRIPTURES.

    Now the chronology of this is interesting. Remember the 10 virgins? These represent the aggregate anointed ones of JWs who would suddenly be faced with the announcement of the arrival of the Messiah. All 10 virgins were sleep at first, spiritually, meaning they were nodding as far as understanding when the Messiah would arrive. Then the wise virgins get their lamps together with their EXTRA OIL and separate from the five virgins. They get into the kingdom in time. These are the anointed ones who are more focussed on scripture and though surprised by them, figure out indeed the Messiah should arrive in 1992 and in the flesh of an Ethipian eunuch and figure I must be him and get into the kingdom by the skin of their teeth. But HALF don't have that ability to accept this at that time. But EVENTUALLY they do. They go and get "oil" from those who sell it, namely the prophets and Moses, the BIBLE and they EVENTUALLY get their lamps burning, meaning they have no choice with all the information to accept this is the Biblical truth about the second coming. So they then rejoice when finally accepting it and finally arrive to get into the kingdom--but it's too late. All that to say this: EVENTUALLY, yes, as people hear this message, they will begin to accept it and understand it and accept I'm the Messiah and that's happening now. But them I will have fulfilled arriving as a thief, for I would have come, without them understanding or knowing it, and stolen their chance for heaven away while they were sleep. This is happening now.

    So my preaching in these news groups is to fullfill that part of the scripture now. People will begin to wake up and then see they are locked out of the kingdom. The foolish virgins DO recognize this Messiah eventually after a while, but too late of a while.

    That's about it. I"M IT. The Bible is true, and soon the world as we know it will end and I'll be ruling with the anointed for 1000 years. The time for Satan and the wayward nations are over....

    JC

    P.S. By the way, when the Bible says I'd strike the nations with the "LONG sword of my mouth" it was a tongue-in-cheek reference that for some reason my posts would be LONG AND BORING! That is, I'd be known for long posts; not TV-generation little posts. I know people don't want to wade through it all, but one day they will be very anxious to seek every word. I'm just providing this information....for NOW...or LATER....

    Know this.

    JC

  • NeonMadman
    NeonMadman

    Interesting comments from the course materials for "Advanced Bible Study Methods" from Moody Bible Institute:

    The Three Essentials of a Type

    T

    HERE ARE THREE THINGS that make a type legitimate. First, there must be a notable or obvious point of resemblance between the type and that which it prefigures, its "antitype."

    Second, there must be some evidence of God?s intention that it should indeed be a type. This evidence would best be a direct reference in the New Testament to its significance as a symbol of something. This requirement will eliminate speculation, and hence a number of Old Testament people or objects which some identify as types.

    Third, a genuine type must truly prefigure or predict something in the future. This pertains to accuracy of the type?s prefiguring. In other words it will clearly portray, without any mystery, what is being prefigured.

    Rules or Procedures in Interpreting Types

    F

    IRST , DETERMINE if a type is indeed present. Earlier, under goals of this lesson, I said that caution is in order when determining this. Interpreters vary widely on the issue of types, but I am conservatively inclined to reject any apparent connection between something in the Old Testament and something similar in the New. I reserve the designation "type" only for those "official" types, that is, those so identified in the New Testament.

    The danger that lies in determining a type is allegorism, that enemy of literal, historical-grammatical interpretation, and the pretext of unscrupulous interpreters. However, some interpreters may not have ulterior motives in finding types where other casual readers see none. For example, many otherwise reliable interpreters see typology in such things as the color of the materials and tent stakes of the tabernacle. The possible danger of this sort of speculation is the credibility of the interpreter himself in the eyes of those who are discerning and more demanding of biblical evidences for these things.

    I would be inclined to be satisfied, when I see some parallel between something in the Old Testament and something in the New, to treat it as simply that: a remarkable parallel. I would not go so far as to claim divine intention, which is one of the requirements of a genuine type. After all, I do not want to be guilty of presumption in regard to the mind of God; I need something explicit for that!

    Second, note the main point of resemblance. This rule is similar to that regarding parables. Not every characteristic of a type may have been divinely intended, so that this rule places some limits on how far one should go, as in the previous case of the tabernacle. This does not mean that there is only one main point of resemblance. Usually the New Testament itself will deal with all the points of resemblance, not leaving that to the interpreter?s personal discretion.

    Also, there may be a pattern established by the New Testament writer for how far one should go, as in the case of the writer to the Hebrews who mentions the tabernacle?s major items of furniture, even though he does not suggest what the precise correspondence is.

    Third, observe differences or contrasts. Although a type generally consists of similarities, some contain contrasts, as in the case of Adam as a type of Christ.

    Fourth, interpret only in light of the New Testament. This rule overlaps with number two and serves also as a limiting factor and preventative of presumption. Frequently the New Testament does the work of interpretation pretty much for you. Often all that remains is a kind of application.

    Now, compare the sort of careful exegesis that is described by this writer with the sloppy interpretation done by the WTS, simply imposing their own history onto every Bible story.

  • heathen
    heathen

    I just cross referenced the Daniel prophesy book and the live forever book . The WTBTS does not even mention the supposed 7 times 360 in the Daniel prophesy book but does in the live forever book . It leaves me wondering if they have changed the whole concept of Daniel 4 being end time prophesy. Does anyone have anything official from the WTBTS on it ? Is this just another one of those screw ups that they try to cover up ?

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