by gumby 21 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
Ahhh! But how about the YEAR?????
I always wondered if those that predict the YEAR of the lords return......somehow feel JUSTIFIED, that they would not be going against jesus words if they mearly predicted the YEAR.....and not the day or hour. Many who argue with them, use this scripture to disprove them. How would YOU answer the claim if they say...."Jesus didn't say we wouldn't know the year".
Gumby
I'd remind that person that the JW's always used one prophetic day to equal one year. So... when Jesus said nobody knows the day, he REALLY meant the year! So if you try to prophesy the year (which is like a shorter time to Jehovah and Jesus), then you're trying to contradict the scripture!
Hehe.
Nobody knowing the DAY nor HOUR is a play on words and concepts like "every eye would see him of the TRIBES OF THE EARTH" suggests everyone on the earth would see Jesus or the "sign" but in fact it is limited. Even the WTS recognizes that the "every eye" would refer to only those who would be his followers, those who would mourn him.
Likewise, the DAY nor HOUR is also a play on words since several Bible chronologies are provided to establish the specific YEAR of both the first and second coming as follows:
1) 1335 days prophecy, 45 years after the "end of the gentile times" which ends 1290 days (Daniel 12) would determine when the Messiah would arrive. "Happy is the one who KEEPS IN EXPECTATION OF THE 1335 DAYS". If we were not supposed to be counting days and "nobody knows the DAY.." then why was this 1335 days given? The "end of the gentile times" or the "appointed times of the nations ended when the nations stopped ruling over Palestine and returned it to the Jews. That was 1947; that ended 1290 days. Add 45 "days"/years to that to get the year of the second coming-1992.
This is cross-matched with two other year-specific prophecies.
2) The "7 times" prpohecy, of course, well-known to Jehovah's witnesses established 2520 years from the fall of Jerusalem until the second coming. The fall of Jerusalem dated either in 607BCE, 587BCE or 529BCE gives you your pick: 1914, 1934 or 1992, respectively.
3) Finally, the Messiah arrifes twice during the 70th week. The first 70th week is was from 29-36CE. Each 70th week a form of ending "gift and sacrifice" takes place at mid-week. For the first coming Christ leaves at mid-week, his death ending the symbolic animal sacrifices. The second 70th week he arrives to end the annual Lord's supper which is the new form of "gift and sacrifice" being celebrated, to be kept by his followers until he arrives when he eats with them one last time upon his arrival. This allows us to date the second coming during the year of the mif-week passover of the 70th week occurring, obviously, during the "last days". You can't miss this since it only occurs every 490 years. But very simple to calculate. Simply count 490-year periods from 36CE down to our day, which is 1960 years. 1960 plus 36 is 1996 and thus the last days 70th week is from 1989 to 1996 with mid-week passover occurring April 6, 1993. Thus Christ must arrive no earlier than Passover 1992 but no later than Passover 1993 to eat the final "Lord's supper".
Taking into consideration the above, therefore, while "nobody knows the DAY nor HOUR", we can determine the MONTH and YEAR. That is, a 4-month period from November 30, 1992 to April 6, 1993 is when the Messiah would appear per fulfilled Bible prophecy (Nov. 30, 1947 is when the gentile times officially ended with the Partition Agreement assigning Palestine back to the Jews so that they had a country again).
As noted above, this does not violate the specific word of scripture that nobody knows the day nor hour. To further this reference, though, in actually, since the Messiah's return would occur over a 3-day period, again, nobody would know the day nor hour, but it was sometime between December 24-26, 1992.
JC
JCanon--- Are you talking the invisible return??
So... many happy returns JC! (Or have I missed something?)
I don't think I would debate with such a person...too many predicted years have failed to materialize...and not just by the witnesses. If someone cannot understand that it is impossible to predict future, then why argue.
gopher...good twist...and a day could mean a thousand years also....LOL
JC...you've got it backwards....I know you'll disagree
If we were not supposed to be counting days and "nobody knows the DAY.."
You mention the 70 weeks....which in my opinion is the only chronological prophecy that can be verified so far. It's easy to look at and understand, cause it has been accomplished, which in my opinion, is why prophecies exist....So we can calculate them after they have been accomplished.
Phophecies were not given so we can decipher them prior to their accomplishment, but rather to see god's ability to predict and control events (if one believes in god that is) after the events have taken place and accomplished, sort of a tool to build faith in him that future events will take place as he has foretold.
To try and read the timing of prophecies is somewhat useless, since god blocks our ability to do so prior to their accomplishment. We'll never know for sure if we understand them correctly, or if we know for a fact which events triggered the beggining of such prophecies. When he uses the term "to be in expectation" he simply means that one should be in constant expectation of events which could happen in his lifetime. It does not mean that one would expect them because he knows the timing, it means rather the opposite, be in expectation all the time cause you do not know the day nor the hour.
Jesus said that it was the good you did unto others which guaranteed a place in heaven, not chronology studies or if you could predict the date correctly. JW have killed the faith of many by attempting to do so.
jacon,
Every eye shall see Him, but not every eye will "recognize what it sees".
carmel
Carmel --- If they don't recognize him then why do they beat themselves in grief because of him ? Revelation 1-7. The WTBTS does say he returned invisibly to take charge of the refining work thru those that are approved by him but do wait for him to execute his judgement on the governments of the world .
Every eye shall see Him, but not every eye will "recognize what it sees".
This will be a matter of interpretation, of course, but BOTH references to those seeing him are in the context of the "tribes of the EARTH".
Matthew 24:30: "Then ALL THE TRIBES OF THE EARTH will beat themselves in lamentation.."
Revelation 1:7: "Look, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, and those who pierced him; and all the TRIBES OF THE EARTH will beat themselves in grief because of him."
I won't go into detail here, but "earth" is symbolically used in Revelation to contrast with the "sea". For instance, the 666-Beast comes out of the "sea" and the Lamb-Dragon beast comes out of the "earth". Thus the earth is associated with God's organization specifically and the "tribes of the earth" who would see him would be those specifically who would mourn over him, thus the eagles gathered around the CORPSE of Christ's body.
So you can Biblcially get around the Bible saying that every person on earth would see him and then mourn over him if "tribes of the earth" is a special reference to those anointed followers of Christ during the last times simply being referred to as the "tribes of the EARTH" earth not meaning the whole world but something associated with Jehovah's organization. The "sea" in Revelation is a reference to Christendom. The 666-Beast represents the leaders of Christendom and believers in the trinity doctrine. The Lamb-Dragon beast is a "false prophet" as well but comes out of the earth and thus represents the false prophets coming out of Jehovah's recognized organization, the leaders of the JWs, who would be the apostate Governing Body of JW (i.e. he rises up in the temple of THE God and makes himself a God="The Faithful and Discrete Slave" god).
Anyway, the LITERAL fulfillment is that the sign of the son of man would appear as images in the clouds that all the anointed members of the "tribes of the earth" would see individually, thus every eye would see him via that imagery in that sense. The MOURNING over him has to do with the fact that the Messiah takes up the body of the prodigal son at the second coming, one of his anointed followers who at one point abandons God like the prodigal son and becomes spiritually dead but then comes back and is still chosen as the Messiah. Thus the anointed follow him throughout his life from birth and when they see him die spiritually they mourn over him and beat themselves in lamentation. You don't lament or mourn over somebody not dead. "Where the CORPSE IS, so the eagles will be gathered." The CORPSE? How is Christ a CORPSE? It's a reference to the death of the prodigal son who later becomes the Messiah, that's why they are mourning, otherwise, they would be happy Christ returned, right?
It's interesting, though now the anointed "eagle" tribes of the earth know about him and follow him even before he himself knows he will become the Messiah and they watch him even while he sins against God and becomes spiritually dead. Thus this individual must have been identified from birth and followed by the secret organizations throughout his life as they watched on: "Where the CORPSE IS, so the eagles will be gathered..." likely protecting him and maneuvering events so that all the Bible's prophecies were fulfilled about him. All in secret...all "with the clouds" (unseen, clouded).
I know this is hard to believe since it is so far out of context of what is generally thought, but just wanted to add this alternative view.
JC
If they don't recognize him then why do they beat themselves in grief because of him ?
Well... Jesus is "directing" the ministry of JW's through his angels, right? So he is in charge of sending these people to obnoxiously push one interpretation of the Kingdom message (we will live, everyone else will die), and causing grief by robbing people of a restful weekend morning.
