voice of thunder

by peacefulpete 11 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  peacefulpete

  In John 12 Jesus prayers to his father and a voice from heaven responds. Verse 30 has jesus saying that the voice was for the crowd's benefit not his. Interestingly the passage also says that those around him heard only thunder, interpreting this as a message from heaven. In what way then was the actual message of benefit to them? The story likely represents a merging of traditions. The older tradition perhaps being that god thru thunder spoke to Jesus (see below), a later wished to expound on the story by putting words in the message. This makes an awkward story, but this is nothing unusual for the NT.

  
  

  Thunder: Voice of the Heavens

  Part 1: Early Concepts

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  Thunder: the natural (non-human) sound most recognized by people across the planet. It lends its name to one of the most common weather phenomenon on Earth -- the thunderstorm -- and its associated elements: the thunderhead, thunder cloud, thunder bolt, thundershower and thunder clap.

  Early humans believed thunder came from the deities -- the voice and expression of their god(s). The roster of thunder gods includes: Thor of the Scandinavians, Donar of the Germans, Zeus of the Greeks, Jupiter of the Romans, Taranis of the Celts, Perkunis of the Slavs, Indra of the Indians and Shango of the Nigerian Yoruba. Each is know to throw thunderbolts or bundles of lightning at the earth while their voices reverberates across the heavens.

  Many early cultures believed thunder was an omen. For example, the Greeks thought thunder on the right was a good omen; however, the Romans regarded thunder on the left as favourable. Both agreed that thunder in the east was more favourable than thunder in the west -- perhaps because, since weather generally moves from west to east, thunder to the east means the tempest has passed.

  Various other cultures recognize a thunderbird as responsible for thunder and lightning. The power of the thunderbird is frequently found in the legends of native American nations and African tribes. For example, the Bantu of south Africa believed that thunder resulted from the beating of the wings of Umpundulo as the bird dove toward the earth.

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  Thunder: Voice of the Heavens and associated material ©1999, Spectrum Educational Enterprises. All Rights Reserved. Correspondence may be sent to email: [email protected]
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  Thunder Rider

  oops .... Soorry thought it was something else....:) I'm flattered though.
  
  Thunder
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  Narkissos

  In classical Hebrew the thunder is commonly called "qol elohim" (voice of gods, or voice of a god), e.g. Exodus 9:28; cf. Isaiah 30:30; Jeremiah 10:13 or Job 37:2. The word "qol" has a very large semantic range which includes "voice" and "sound" (for instance, in Genesis 3:8 what is usually translated "the voice of Yhwh" can as well mean "the sound of Yhwh's footsteps", i.e. "the sound of the breeze in the trees"). In the "Baalist" Psalm 29 we have a vivid depiction of the "voice of Yhwh" as thunder.

  The Gospel of John is fond of playing on misunderstandings (the discussion with Nicodemus in chapter 3 is a good example). The interpretations "thunder" or "an angel spoke" (v. 29) are presented as popular misunderstandings of the divine voice which only the Johannine Jesus grasps correctly (this could be compared to the anti-baalist revelation to Elijah in 1Kings 19: Yhwh is NOT in the thunderstorm). Remember demons and angels only occur in GJohn as metaphors (1:51; 20:12) or as a popular belief (to describe Jesus' supposed lunacy, 7:20; 8:48f,52; 10:20f). When compared to the other Gospels, the early material of John's Gospel seems very akin to the Sadducees' view (the Beloved disciple is supposed to be an acquaintance of the high priest, 18:15; see also 11:50f).
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  ThiChi

  In Context:

  Jesus' public witness has climaxed in his declaration of oneness with God, which he supported from Scripture (10:30-38). Now, in a semiprivate setting, the raising of Lazarus reveals plainly what all the signs have been about--Jesus as the resurrection and the life. But this action galvanizes the opponents to seek his death, so now we come to the beginning of the end. Instead of seeing Jesus doing signs, we see signs occurring through what others do to him. First, Mary anoints Jesus at Bethany in a private setting (12:1-8). Second, there is the public outpouring at the triumphal entry into Jerusalem, as a great crowd receives him as the king of Israel (12:12-15). Third, after the awaited king has entered his city the Gentiles come to him, which signals that the long expected hour has arrived. Jesus announces the coming of his hour and speaks of his death (12:20-26). This is followed by a fourth and final sign offered to the crowd not by Jesus but by the Father himself, who bears witness to Jesus (12:27-28). The crowd, however, does not receive the Father's witness any more than it has Jesus' (12:29). Jesus interprets the voice for them, but the crowd only raises further questions (12:30-34). So Jesus adds no further teaching; he only warns them to receive what they have already been given and then hides himself from them once again (12:35-36).
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  peacefulpete

  Narkissos..Interesting take on it. So you see the passage in the spirit of the anthropomorphic reforms of 8 centuries before? But was this an issue at that time among Jews? Were Jews (or Greeks for that matter) returning to Baalist conceptions of a god in nature so as to warrant a subtle polemic? Given the Hellenized nature of the Jesus story and the textural irregularities doesn't my explanation better fit?
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  peacefulpete

  Narkissos...Your note about the beloved disciple being well known to the High priest makes unlikely the writer was a "John of Galilee". Both distance and predjudice would have made this improbable. This one of the many arguments that suggests a female Jerusalemite author or at least a pretended female author of "GJohn". Hey it's my thread I can go off topic.
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  U.2.K. Tha Greate$t

  When thunderstroms come you will only hear GOD's voice if you are on your way to righteousness or you are already righteous! Trust me im a witness of GOd's voice, Thunderstorms are a sign of righteousness and it's a time to change your ways.
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  drwtsn32

  U2K:

  Do you also hear the word of God from the moon?

  http://objective.jesussave.us/moon.html
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  U.2.K. Tha Greate$t

  No. Serious tho every now and then when there is a storm, i not only fear GOD's work, i also enjoy it. And i hear GOD's voice though the thunder just like JOB said. Thunderstorms is a sign of trouble, a time to change your ways and follow the lawz and commandments, A time to hear what GOD is telling you. Trust me it made me a better person!
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  Narkissos

  Peacefulpete: Of course I was not implying any "anti-Baalist" polemic in GJohn! I was just trying a comparison, which came naturally to my mind because of the topic. Apart from the thunder itself, the only common point I can see between 1K 19 and John is the pedagogic thrust of the text, which starts from a popular belief (the Baalistic Yhwh implied in 1K 18; the pharisaic-apocalyptic system of mediation with God in GJohn) and departs from it to lead the readers into a supposedly "higher" form of belief. That's a constant rhetorical process in John (other good examples are the treatment of "resurrection" in chapter 11, or "eschatology" in chapter 14).