I let others define what category (if necessary to choose one) they fit in; ask themselves are they happy with their chosen status, do they want to change it, not just choose a new category. I have been PIMI, PIMO, POMO but not found it necessary to label myself, atheist, agnostic, deist, humanist, etc. I have my views and lifestyle. I know some ex-jws are gone to other Christian religions, other choose their personal religious group of views, some go to church for the social advantages, others are "activists" others not. But I don't judge. We all have a central story that we can help people telling our own experiences. I respect the jws or ex-jws that do that here and on other groups. Thanks.
Better off PIMA than POMA or POMO.
by ExBethelitenowPIMA 98 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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cofty
SBF - It's bullshit in the context of this discussion.
Do we 'FULLY' perceive reality? Define fully - but probably not. Do we have unassailable proof that earth is not flat? Absolutely.
You are addicted to mental masturbation.
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slimboyfat
That’s your opinion. I don’t know why this thread or its topic should be exempted from epistemic humility that acknowledges human limitations.
Evolution might be a crappy interface for something that goes far deeper.
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Disillusioned JW
cofty, that which we now call science used to be called "natural philosophy"; the word "scientist" (though not the word "science") had not even been coined prior to the year 1834. Science itself has a philosophical basis (called "philosophy of science"), including when it comes to ideas of how a person is to conduct science. That, in turn, includes: making a hypothesis and testing it, determining what constitutes an accurate and good measurement, determining whether or not we can trust our physical senses (including sight) when doing an experiment, determining how to determine if our measuring equipment are reliable (and if so, to what extent it is reliable), and etc.
Likewise logic (including deductive and inductive logic) is a branch of philosophy, and it (and critical reasoning) are taught in some introductory college courses in philosophy.
But every conscious human who thinks in terms of language (such as in using words) practices philosophy. For example, the use of philosophy takes place when people attempt to determine the meaning of quantum mechanics. But yes much of philosophy is highly debatable.
slimboyfat I think it is highly questionable to use human logic to question if human logic is reliable. It is a type of 'catch-22'. I think the only way it can be is if we presume a certain axiom(s)/premise(s)/presumption(s)/assumption(s) or method(s) of logic is(are) reliable and use it (or them) as standard to question and test alleged axioms or methods of logic (in other words ones we are not yet sure are reliable), but even then we are still starting from an unproven base. It is like all of the axioms/assumptions of mathematics are an unproven starting point in doing mathematics. There isn't much (if anything) we can do about those situations. Perhaps the best we can accomplish from doing such is to determine if our ideas of logic and mathematics are good enough and reliable enough. That is the same situation which might be case if we came into existence from unguided evolution.
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cofty
Dis-JW - when somebody literally won't affirm that we can know the earth isn't flat because 'epistemic humility' then philosophy has become utter bullshit.
Evolution is a fact. Agnosticism is inappropriate. More reading is the solution.
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Sea Breeze
that’s where I’m at. Better off PIMA than POMA or POMO
It took me several years to take a stand for truth. Those 8 years were the most miserable of my life filled with regret.
Last night I helped with the senior prom, my son was among them. I met another dad there who was lamenting the fact that he had to quit college to help support the family. He has done quite well, his son was there too. My point is that he, like me is living part of our life out through our sons, who will go to college, and have the opportunity to be free of WT lies.
My son was accepted to an engeneering college ranked #13 in the USA. MY JW family was so severe growing up that I had to go to work at 16 to escape it. The 8th grade was the last grade I completed in High School. Yet, I still didn't take a stand for truth for a long time afterwards. Just figuring out what truth was, was very time consuming. I am 59 now.The longer you wait to face truth and live it out, the longer you will postpone your destiny and that of your progeny. And, yes, I believe God does have a destiny for each of us if we will walk into it with faith apart from cults that pretend to be God.
The simple fact is that it will take a lot of courage to say goodbye to certain family members so that you and your children can be free of this terrible cult.
Russell was a narrcissitistic charlatan who sold miracle wheat on the pages of the Watchtower. A man with a 7th grade education who believed he alone was foretold in scripture to rule the world has captured you and your family. That is the reality. You may not be able to get the whole job done in your lifetime. That's OK. Your children will know the price you have paid for their freedom.
One day you'll look back at what you have built apart from the WT and be glad you took a stand for truth. I am. -
Disillusioned JW
cofty I notice you said to me "when somebody literally won't affirm that we can know the earth isn't flat because 'epistemic humility' then philosophy has become utter bullshit." The idea expressed in that statement of your is part of your philosophy.
Though I agree with you biological evolution is true, the fact is that biological evolution has not been directly observed as that taking place at level beyond speciation. Though new species (according to some definitions of "species") have been directly observed to come into existence, evolution has not yet ever been observed as taking place above the taxonomic level of species. For example a new genera has never been directly observed as coming into existence. As result, I am not convinced that macroevolution has been directly observed as having taken place.
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Disillusioned JW
Sea Breeze I notice you said about yourself that "The 8th grade was the last grade I completed in High School." Don't you mean that the 8th grade was the last grade you completed and that thus you did not complete any grade of high school? Or do you really mean that 8th grade was really a grade in high school at that the time and place you went to 8th grade.
I have always lived in the western USA and where I went to school the 8th grade was the last grade of elementary school at the school I attended before high school. [My school was kindergarten though 8th grade, but kindergarten preceded 1st grade.] In my then city it later (starting in the year right after I graduated) became the last grade of middle school, but in both cases 8th grade was the last grade before the start of high school. 9th grade is the first grade of high school (with 12th grade being the final grade of high school.
However my maternal grandmother (who was raised in the south, in the USA) who said she while young was never permitted to attend 8th grade because she was black and that blacks were not allowed to attend high school. [Much later as an adult she obtained further education, apparently even high school education and, according to mom, took some college courses. My grandmother was a devout JW, starting from before my mom became an adult.] She thought 8th grade was part of high school, but to me that idea is wrong. A PDF of a census document posted on Ancestry.com mentioned that my maternal grandmother completed 8th grade, despite my grandmother saying she never attended 8th grade and despite her saying she was forbidden by racist laws in the southern USA of the time from attending 8th grade and high school. [My said that the census worker who filled out the census form might have falsely claimed that my grandmother attended 8th grade, in order to hide the fact the fact of grandmother being withheld from attending 8th grade. But I doubt that view is correct.]
Several months ago I checked a Wikipedia article on the topic and it confirmed that in the USA that 9th grade is the first grade of high school.
Sea Breeze, were you raised in the south (the part of the USA which commonly called 'the south", even though there are western states in the southern USA which are excluded from be called part of the south)?
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Disillusioned JW
cofty, as a result (of what I stated in the 2nd paragraph of my prior post to you) people can make a legitimate case that evolution in the sense of macroevolution has not been demonstrated as proven (to 100% certainty), and a number of scientists say that science does not actually 'prove' anything, since at any moment a new scientific discovery can be made which disproves an existening theory of science or other idea or finding of science (even one considered to be a fact).
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ExBethelitenowPIMA
The entire point of being agnostic is that you have come to the conclusion that either chance or intelligent design can’t be proven.
If one could be proven then all agnostics would jump that side of the fence.
If someone could prove either chance or intelligent design then please post the proof here, I would jump that side of the fence in a heartbeat.
unfortunately there is no proof of either theory and once you come to this realisation you also realise we are all agnostic until such proof can be presented