Better off PIMA than POMA or POMO.

by ExBethelitenowPIMA 98 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  cofty

  Cofty and others try to say the missing link has been found

  That you would write this shows you are commenting from a position of almost total ignorance of the subject.

  You have never read a science book in your entire life have you?

  Every living thing descended from a common ancestor over millions of years: the earth is not flat. These two statements are equally certain.

  The vast majority of Christians accept the fact of evolution. It is only a small minority of fundies and most Muslims who don't.
• 

  TonusOH

  Sea Breeze: What if someone chooses a purpose that requires them to murder you?

  You seem to be saying that, without God, we cannot agree on standards of behavior. Yet human societies have managed this for thousands of years, and do so to this day. Do you believe that, without God, we would not be able to determine why murder is bad?

  As for God's character, we are referring to a being who defines itself as jealous, angry, vengeful, and a god of armies. Who wiped out almost all life on the planet with a flood. Who led his chosen people through a violent scouring of cities and cultures that occasionally involved the killing of every last man, woman, and child, and sometimes even livestock. Who struck dead a man who reached out to steady the ark of the covenant, when he feared it might fall.

  An individual who decides that his purpose requires my murder is scary, but I can have hope that I may avoid or overcome him. An all-powerful God who can wipe out whole populations with a thought, and has demonstrated that capability before? That is terrifying.
• 

  ThomasCovenant

  Sea Breeze: What if someone chooses a purpose that requires them to murder you?

  What, like if a person believes that the deity they worship requires them to murder someone?

  For example, Abraham believing that his 'god' wanted him to murder his own son?

  What you asked is exactly why I have very little respect for any worshipper of any god. Once you start worshipping an almighty Allah or God, if you believe that that deity may require you to rape, or kill, or feed the poor, you have to do it. And you can justify it.
• 

  Sea Breeze

  It all comes down to proof.

  @PIMA - Have you tested this statement to see if it is true?
  

  See what I'm saying? If your truth statement about poof, can't be proven then it contradicts itself and logically should rejected by its own standard.

  Sea Breeze: What if someone chooses a purpose that requires them to murder you?
  You seem to be saying that, without God, we cannot agree on standards of behavior.

  @TonusOH - No, I'm not saying that.

  I'm saying that people who preach freedom in subjective morality chatacterized by pop sayings such as:

  1. to each his own

  2. diferent strokes for different folks

  3. if it makes you happy it can't be that bad

  ..would immediately change their philosophy about subjectivity when someone tests that worldview by purtting a gun to their head. Then the worldview would be no, you can't do that because it is objectively wrong to murder me.

  See what I'm saying? There must be some room for objective morality in order for it to make sense. Otherwise, the word "morality" itself woud have no meaning.
• 

  Disillusioned JW

  Regarding the topic of whether human morality is subjective or not I will say the following. Human morality is made by humans (not by a god). The morality that pertains to humans is not the exact same morality that pertains to nonhuman animals. The morality (or moralities) that chimpanzee cultures have is not the same in every respect as the morality (or moralities) of human cultures. In various human cultures the standards of morality in some of those cultures differs from that of some other cultures to some extent.

  The web page at https://study.com/learn/lesson/moral-objectivism-subjectivism-relativism-overview-differences-examples.html says the following. "Subjectivism is when morality is not dependent on set rules or societal norms, but rather on the individual. An individual gets to decide what is good or bad based on their own principles, feelings, and beliefs." The web page also says the following: "Moral relativism states that morality is determined by a culture or a society, such as a religious group. Moral objectivism states that there is a set of valid rules and principles which should be adhered to by all people no matter what." At this time I prefer to not state if I think either of those three types of human morality are correct or not, since it is difficult for me to make a definite decision about such.
  
  Determining what is moral or immoral in some specific situations is not an easy one for me to make, especially when it comes to deciding what morality to apply to people other than myself. For example, I am tolerant of people having certain lifestyles which I wish to never engage in. For example, I no longer consider it immoral (in some situations) for unmarried people to engage in sex with multiple unmarried persons, but I chose to avoiding engaging in that kind of sexual conduct. However, because I was raised to believe that such sexual conduct is always immoral (and because such a concept got deeply ingrained into me), I sometimes (such as when talking to my JW family) inadvertently refer to people engaging in such as immoral people.
  
• 

  Sea Breeze

  At this time I prefer to not state if I think either of those two types of human morality are correct or not, since it is difficult for me to make a definite decision about such. Determining what is moral or immoral in some specific situations is not an easy one for me to make, especially when it comes to deciding what morality to apply to people other than myself.

  DJW,

  Would it help if I put a gun to your head and told you that I just loved killing people?
  
  (Not that I would ever do that. ) But, would an event like that help you to decide?

  Can you see now why polls indicate that most people don't trust atheists and why they are among the least liked groups?

  After leaving one of the most least liked groups as a JW, you found one that may be even less popular.
• 

  Disillusioned JW

  Sea Breeze, please consider the following. Is joining a military and killing (even under orders from one's military superiors) noncombatant civilians acts of murder? To some it is and to others it is not. to others, it depends upon the specifics of the situation. Exodus 20:13 (KJV) says "thou shalt not kill" and chapter 20 says that without any exception, but elsewhere the OT Bible commands militaristic killing of humans (especially of non-Jews) in a number of occasions. The OT Bible also commands executing humans who were guilty of breaking the Mosaic laws. Are those examples of subjective morality, of relativistic morality, or being inconsistent. Does the above help you to re-evaluate your position on the subject? When if ever, is breaking the commandment of "thou shalt not kill" justified?

  If you thought Yahweh God or Jesus Christ definitely gave you an order to kill me, would attempt to obey that perceived order (such as like the OT Bible portrays Abraham as having attempted to do to his son)? Would your actions in response to such a perceived command depend upon the other circumstances at that time? Many devout theologically conserved have killed people because they thought god told them to so.

  I didn't choose the JW as a result of wanting to be popular (or more popular). I didn't later conclude that atheism and naturalism are true in order to be popular (or more popular). I didn't become an and atheist and a naturalist in order to increase my degree of popularity. I became an atheist and a naturalist because I concluded that it is vastly more probable there is no god (especially a personal God) and nothing supernatural, that that there a god and supernatural. I became and atheist and a naturalist because I followed the evidence to where it leads and because I very highly value truth., including knowing the truth and accepting the truth.

  But there are vastly more atheists worldwide than JWs and thus far more people worldwide are attracted to becoming atheists than to becoming JWs. [Furthermore, polls of the USA population say that the percentage of people who claim to be atheist is rising (likewise for those claiming to be nonreligious). In contrast polls of people in the USA who claim to be Christians in rapidly falling (likewise for those claiming to believe in God).] I have told many of my co-workers that I am an atheist who is a former JW and they are fine with that. They act very friendly to me. They also see that I am a good person and a number of them have specifically told me I am a good person (without me asking if they think I am a good person).

  Is your sense of morality truly consistent?
  
• 

  Sea Breeze

  DJW,

  I can see you are really struggling with this. Let's go to a dictionary:
  
  

  MUR'DER, noun [Latin mors.]

  1. The act of unlawfully killing a human being with premeditated malice, by a person of sound mind. To constitute murder in law, the person killing another must be of sound mind or in possession of his reason, and the act must be done with malice prepense, aforethought or premeditated; but malice may be implied, as well as express.
  
  Does it make sense to you why people in general don't trust atheists if you cannot even admit that it would be morally wrong for someone to take your own life?
  
  How could anyone feel safe under the control of someone like this?
• 

  Disillusioned JW

  Sea Breeze, on a great many pages of the 'Holy' Bible extreme violence, even that which is glorified and mentioned in gory detail. Do you joyfully look forwards to being part of Christ's executional forces (in heaven) during the battle of Armageddon? Do you relish the thought of killing (from heaven) millions of people during Armageddon, in service to Christ and to God? Does it give you an intense thrill to think of killing atheists, non-Christians, homosexuals, lesbians, people who engage in sex outside of marriage, and various other types of people?
  

  Regarding your comment of "... cannot even admit that it would be morally wrong for someone to take your own life?", that is not the case in. Instead I didn't answer the question because I do not wish to let you make me veer off the points i making. I want to stay focused on my message to you.

  Furthermore, when you said "Would it help if I put a gun to your head and told you that I just loved killing people?" I did not you were asking me if think it would be immoral for someone to try to murder me (or kill) me? Instead, I thought you sarcastically meant would it help me 'to decide between if all morality should be objective, relative, or subjective?'
  

  Regarding the definition of murder, I am well aware that the dictionary definition of murder is that it is unlawful killing (and the WT also teaches such, and uses the word "murder" instead of "kill" in the 1984 NWT translation of Exodus 20:13). The laws pertaining to when killing is murder and when it is not murder, vary from state to another and from one country to another, and from one century to another. At the Nuremberg trials many Nazis were convicted of having done murders (or crimes against humanity) even though those Nazis were following orders of their government and of their nation's laws. As a result when I contemplate whether a specif killing of humans is murder of not, I don't just consider whether the local human government jurisdiction considers it murder, nor if the Bible says God considers it murder. I also also evaluate the humans laws and the purported laws of Yahweh God, to determine if they are wrong in saying a specific killing is not murder. [Compare that to the biblical account of Lot questioning Yahweh about whether he would destroy the entire city of Sodom if a certain number of people therein were righteous.]
  
• 

  Sea Breeze

  DJW,

  Why can't you admit that it is objectively morally wrong for someone to murder you? We all know what you would claim if this was tested. Do you really need scientists, the bible or someone else to give you permission to believe this?
  
  Is your mind that far gone?