How did all the animals fit on Noah's Ark?

by hooberus 207 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • hooberus
    hooberus
    I think it's easy to see who has the ideological blinders on here. Hooberus, really - you make my case for me better than I ever could by myself.

    The hypothetical "evolutionary responses" that I have listed (on this thread as well as previous ones) to your falsification tests for evolution I believe are fairly close to arguments that evolutionists would use if the potential situations that you have listed were to materialize. Therefore it is difficult to say that evolution meets the criteria of falsifiability. Hense the "falsifiabilty" argument should not be used as an excuse to apriori exclude creation from consideration along with evolution. Also it has been shown that many evolutionists have apriori limited themselves to an only evolutionary conclusion even before they approach data, hense the claim that creationists should be classified as "pseudoscientists" due to bias, should be dropped as an excuse for discounting their work.

  • rem
    rem

    Hooberus,

    That is your opinion and it seems it will never change. The fact is, though, you will never find a real scientist agreeing with a presuppositionalist "statement of faith" such as can be found at your favorite pseudoscience websites:

    http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/about/faith.asp

    Statement of Faith
    (A) PRIORITIES

    1. The scientific aspects of creation are important, but are secondary in importance to the proclamation of the Gospel of Jesus Christ as Sovereign, Creator, Redeemer and Judge.
    2. The doctrines of Creator and Creation cannot ultimately be divorced from the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

    (B) BASICS

    1. The 66 books of the Bible are the written Word of God. The Bible is divinely inspired and inerrant throughout. Its assertions are factually true in all the original autographs. It is the supreme authority, not only in all matters of faith and conduct, but in everything it teaches. Its authority is not limited to spiritual, religious or redemptive themes but includes its assertions in such fields as history and science.
    2. The final guide to the interpretation of Scripture is Scripture itself.
    3. The account of origins presented in Genesis is a simple but factual presentation of actual events and therefore provides a reliable framework for scientific research into the question of the origin and history of life, mankind, the Earth and the universe.
    4. The various original life forms (kinds), including mankind, were made by direct creative acts of God. The living descendants of any of the original kinds (apart from man) may represent more than one species today, reflecting the genetic potential within the original kind. Only limited biological changes (including mutational deterioration) have occurred naturally within each kind since Creation.
    5. The great Flood of Genesis was an actual historic event, worldwide (global) in its extent and effect.
    6. The special creation of Adam (the first man) and Eve (the first woman), and their subsequent fall into sin, is the basis for the necessity of salvation for mankind.
    7. Death (both physical and spiritual) and bloodshed entered into this world subsequent to, and as a direct consequence of, man?s sin.

    (C) THEOLOGY

    1. The Godhead is triune: one God, three Persons?God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.
    2. All mankind are sinners, inherently from Adam and individually (by choice) and are therefore subject to God?s wrath and condemnation.
    3. Freedom from the penalty and power of sin is available to man only through the sacrificial death and shed blood of Jesus Christ, and His complete and bodily Resurrection from the dead.
    4. The Holy Spirit enables the sinner to repent and believe in Jesus Christ.
    5. The Holy Spirit lives and works in each believer to produce the fruits of righteousness.
    6. Salvation is a gift received by faith alone in Christ alone and expressed in the individual?s repentance, recognition of the death of Christ as full payment for sin, and acceptance of the risen Christ as Saviour, Lord and God.
    7. All things necessary for our salvation are set down in Scripture.
    8. Jesus Christ was conceived by the Holy Spirit and born of the virgin Mary.
    9. Jesus Christ rose bodily from the dead, ascended to Heaven, is currently seated at the right hand of God the Father, and shall return in like manner to this Earth as Judge of the living and the dead.
    10. Satan is the personal spiritual adversary of both God and man.
    11. Those who do not believe in Christ are subject to everlasting conscious punishment, but believers enjoy eternal life with God.

    (D) GENERAL

    1. The following are held by members of the Board of Answers in Genesis to be either consistent with Scripture or implied by Scripture: Scripture teaches a recent origin for man and the whole creation.
    2. The days in Genesis do not correspond to geologic ages, but are six [6] consecutive twenty-four [24] hour days of Creation.
    3. The Noachian Flood was a significant geological event and much (but not all) fossiliferous sediment originated at that time.
    4. The ?gap? theory has no basis in Scripture.
    5. The view, commonly used to evade the implications or the authority of Biblical teaching, that knowledge and/or truth may be divided into ?secular? and ?religious?, is rejected.
    6. By definition, no apparent, perceived or claimed evidence in any field, including history and chronology, can be valid if it contradicts the Scriptural record. Of primary importance is the fact that evidence is always subject to interpretation by fallible people who do not possess all information.

    And the ICR:

    http://www.icr.org/abouticr/tenets.htm

    ICR Tenets of Creationism

    The Institute for Creation Research Graduate School has a unique statement of faith for its faculty and students, incorporating most of the basic Christian doctrines in a creationist framework, organized in terms of two parallel sets of tenets, related to God's created world and God's inspired Word, respectively. Reproduced below are the ICR Educational Philosophy and its Tenets of Scientific Creationism and Biblical Creationism.
    ICR EDUCATIONAL PHILOSOPHY

    The programs and curricula of the Graduate School, as well as the activities of other ICR divisions, while similar in factual content to those of other graduate colleges, are distinctive in one major respect. The Institute for Creation Research bases its educational philosophy on the foundational truth of a personal Creator-God and His authoritative and unique revelation of truth in the Bible, both Old and New Testaments.

    This perspective differs from the evolutionary humanistic philosophy which has dominated most educational institutions for the past century, providing the most satisfying and meaningful structure of a consistently creationist and Biblical framework, and placing the real facts of science and history in the best context for effective future research and application.

    More explicitly, the administration and faculty of ICR are committed to the tenets of both scientific creationism and Biblical creationism as formulated below. A clear distinction is drawn between scientific creationism and Biblical creationism but it is the position of the Institute that the two are compatible and that all genuine facts of science support the Bible. ICR maintains that scientific creationism should be taught along with the scientific aspects of evolutionism in tax-supported institutions, and that both scientific and Biblical creationism should be taught in Christian schools.
    Tenets of Scientific Creationism

    *
    The physical universe of space, time, matter, and energy has not always existed, but was supernaturally created by a transcendent personal Creator who alone has existed from eternity.
    *
    The phenomenon of biological life did not develop by natural processes from inanimate systems but was specially and supernaturally created by the Creator.
    *
    Each of the major kinds of plants and animals was created functionally complete from the beginning and did not evolve from some other kind of organism. Changes in basic kinds since their first creation are limited to "horizontal" changes (variation) within the kinds, or "downward' changes (e.g., harmful mutations, extinctions).
    *
    The first human beings did not evolve from an animal ancestry, but were specially created in fully human form from the start. Furthermore, the "spiritual" nature of man (self-image, moral consciousness, abstract reasoning, language, will, religious nature, etc.) is itself a supernaturally created entity distinct from mere biological life.
    *
    The record of earth history, as preserved in the earth's crust, especially in the rocks and fossil deposits, is primarily a record of catastrophic intensities of natural processes, operating largely within uniform natural laws, rather than one of gradualism and relatively uniform process rates. There are many scientific evidences for a relatively recent creation of the earth and the universe, in addition to strong scientific evidence that most of the earth's fossiliferous sedimentary rocks were formed in an even more recent global hydraulic cataclysm.
    *
    Processes today operate primarily within fixed natural laws and relatively uniform process rates but, since these were themselves originally created and are daily maintained by their Creator, there is always the possibility of miraculous intervention in these laws or processes by their Creator. Evidences for such intervention should be scrutinized critically, however, because there must be clear and adequate reason for any such action on the part of the Creator.
    *
    The universe and life have somehow been impaired since the completion of creation, so that imperfections in structure, disease, aging, extinctions, and other such phenomena are the result of "negative" changes in properties and processes occurring in an originally-perfect created order.
    *
    Since the universe and its primary components were created perfect for their purposes in the beginning by a competent and volitional Creator, and since the Creator does remain active in this now-decaying creation, there do exist ultimate purposes and meanings in the universe. Teleological considerations, therefore, are appropriate in scientific studies whenever they are consistent with the actual data of observation, and it is reasonable to assume that the creation presently awaits the consummation of the Creator's purpose.
    *
    Although people are finite and scientific data concerning origins are always circumstantial and incomplete, the human mind (if open to the possibility of creation) is able to explore the manifestations of that Creator rationally and scientifically, and to reach an intelligent decision regarding one's place in the Creator's plan.

    Tenets of Biblical Creationism

    *
    The Creator of the universe is a triune God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. There is only one eternal and transcendent God, the source of all being and meaning, and He exists in three Persons, each of whom participated in the work of creation.
    *
    The Bible, consisting of the thirty-nine canonical books of the Old Testament and the twenty-seven canonical books of the New Testament, is the divinely-inspired revelation of the Creator to man. Its unique, plenary, verbal inspiration guarantees that these writings, as originally and miraculously given, are infallible and completely authoritative on all matters with which they deal, free from error of any sort, scientific and historical as well as moral and theological.
    *
    All things in the universe were created and made by God in the six literal days of the creation week described in Genesis 1:1-2:3, and confirmed in Exodus 20:8-11. The creation record is factual, historical, and perspicuous; thus all theories of origins or development which involve evolution in any form are false. All things which now exist are sustained and ordered by God's providential care. However, a part of the spiritual creation, Satan and his angels, rebelled against God after the creation and are attempting to thwart His divine purposes in creation.
    *
    The first human beings, Adam and Eve, were specially created by God, and all other men and women are their descendants. In Adam, mankind was instructed to exercise "dominion" over all other created organisms, and over the earth itself (an implicit commission for true science, technology, commerce, fine art, and education) but the temptation by Satan and the entrance of sin brought God's curse on that dominion and on mankind, culminating in death and separation from God as the natural and proper consequence.
    *
    The Biblical record of primeval earth history in Genesis 1-11 is fully historical and perspicuous, including the creation and fall of man, the curse on the creation and its subjection to the bondage of decay, the promised Redeemer, the worldwide cataclysmic deluge in the days of Noah, the post-diluvian renewal of man's commission to subdue the earth (now augmented by the institution of human govemment) and the origin of nations and languages at the tower of Babel.
    *
    The alienation of man from his Creator because of sin can only be remedied by the Creator Himself, who became man in the person of the Lord Jesus Christ, through miraculous conception and virgin birth. In Christ were indissolubly united perfect sinless humanity and full deity, so that His substitutionary death is the only necessary and sufficient price of man's redemption. That the redemption was completely efficacious is assured by His bodily resurrection from the dead and ascension into heaven; the resurrection of Christ is thus the focal point of history, assuring the consummation of God's purposes in creation.
    *
    The final restoration of creation's perfection is yet future, but individuals can immediately be restored to fellowship with their Creator, on the basis of His redemptive work on their behalf, receiving forgiveness and etemal life solely through personal trust in the Lord Jesus Christ, accepting Him not only as estranged Creator but also as reconciling Redeemer and coming King. Those who reject Him, however, or who neglect to believe on Him, thereby continue in their state of rebellion and must ultimately be consigned to the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

    In addition to a firm commitment to creationism and to full Biblical inerrancy and authority, the ICR Graduate School is committed to traditional education and to high standards of academic excellence. Each student's graduate program will consist predominantly of classroom lecture courses, with interaction between instructors and students, plus a research investigation and M.S. thesis. ICR's highly qualified and experienced faculty is in itself assurance of a rigorous and creative educational experience for its graduates, equipping them both for productive careers in their chosen fields and for making a significant contribution to the ongoing worldwide revival of theistic creationism.


    That sure doesn't sound like science to me! (There was almost too much stuff to bold! How many presuppositional statements can you count?) The only presupposition a real scientist *should* have is that all theories should be materialistic and falsifiable (testable). Whether you like it or not, that's what science is. Anything dealing with non-materialistic hypotheses is not science. Anyone who starts out with the presupposition that all data must be interpreted through the pages of an ancient religious text is not doing science.

    rem

  • greven
    greven

    Hoob, you say that evolution cannot be falsified.

    The Bible is divinely inspired and inerrant throughout.

    The great Flood of Genesis was an actual historic event, worldwide (global) in its extent and effect.

    By definition, no apparent, perceived or claimed evidence in any field, including history and chronology, can be valid if it contradicts the Scriptural record.

    According to these statements quoted by rem the biblical flood you argue for cannot be falsfied!

    The reasoning is like:

    1) The bible is inspired.

    2) The bible (as we interpret it) says there was a global flood.

    3) Any evidence contradicting 1) or 2) are to be ignored as they are "always subject to interpretation by fallible people who do not possess all information".

    Strangly enough that same 'interpretation by fallible people' is done on the bible itself but this is um...okay.

    Sheesh!

  • Abaddon
    Abaddon

    Hi hooberus;

    Will you at last (I've asked before) tell me how the Flood could have been global if there were trees growing before during and after it? You know, the Bristlecone Pine thing?

    Whilst one may nay-say more technological dating techniques and create spurious reasons for doubting them, with dendrochronolgy the same technique is used as in dating any chunk of wood. You count the rings.

    Differing seasonal conditions mean the relative thickness of rings acts as a fingerprint for trees in the same area, so if one live tree is a thousand years old, and it's first one hundred rings match the last hundred rings on a dead tree that has a thousand rings, you have a dating record going back 1,900 years.

    With certain long-lived trees you can, with two or three trees, take a continuous growth record back beyond ANY possible date for a literal Biblical Flood, and even beyond any possible date for a literal Biblical Creation.

    I've presented this evidence in detail to you before and you have failed to refute it. Rather you seek to support your beliefs by ignoring the areas you know you cannot contend with and using cut & paste apologetics to attempt to make your case in areas you think you can defend your case.

    It's rather like someone refusing to accept the evidence (genetically verified) of six children clutching to a woman's legs whilst insisting on her virginity...

    Unable to prove geologicaly there was a Flood, unable to counter direct evidence the Flood was not global, you persist in an unmodified version of your belief in a global Flood and post 'proofs' that the animals could have fitted in the Ark... when that, even if true, is not proof of the Flood.

    I say all this as I have seen all your arguments before, they've all been wanting and self-deceiving in the manner I point out, and I can now only really take an interest in studying the psychology you display whilst making your apolgetic posts.

    ... and you ask;

    What about evolutionary apologists whos sole purpose is proving evolution? Does this disqualify them also?

    No. Your paradigm boils down to presuppositionalism; you assert there is a god and that therefore the evidence supports this.

    Scientific paradigms tend to interpret the evidence before coming up with a theory to support them.

    Thus an evolutionist should interpret the evidence and reach a conclusion - a very different method from the Creationist apologetic who looks selectively (as you do yourself) for evidence that can be presented in a way that seems to support the theory they have already decided is right.

  • City Fan
    City Fan

    Abaddon,

    Have you read the book 'Exodus to Arthur' by Mike Baillie. It has some very good explanations of the science of dendrochronology.

    The tree ring record shows certain catastrophic events throughout history including 3195BC, 2354BC, 1628BC and 540AD. For example the tree ring event of 1628BC occurred when the volcano on Thera exploded.

    Here's a quote from the book: "The third and fourth millenia BC, in central Europe, are now littered with absolute dates, with sufficient available long-distance connections to be glimpsed. Dendrochronology dating of the split oak timbers which make up the 'Sweet Track' in Somerset, England, last grew in 3807 BC. The track allowed humans to negotiate the inhospitable levels, probably at a time when the surface was relatively dry."

    The 2354 BC event is consistent with local flooding.

    CF.

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete

    Hooberus' proposeal amounts to reinventing the wheel every day. For example. The Theory of Gravitaion is a model that accounts for the observed phenomenon of everyday as well as the exotic anomolies of space. Hooberu' sugested approach to science implies is it bad science for physicists to not consider whether a spirit or an otherwise unknown force is responsible for the coffee spill on his shirt.

  • hooberus
  • Abaddon
    Abaddon

    I am deafened and stunned by the virtuosity of your rebuttal hooberus. Not.

    Look, if you can't take the heat you generate by starting pseudoscientific threads of Biblical apologism, don't start them.

    Starting a thread and then running off when you can no longer answer the counter-arguments is childish, and not really fighting the good fight.

    You're entitiled to believe anything you want, as long as it doesn't result in actual harm to other people. You're entiltled to express these beliefs.

    But you are not equivalently entitled to your own facts, you are not equivalently entitled to ignore physical evidence which doesn't suit your belief structure.

    As you do choose your own facts (rather than arriving at them via investigation), and do igonore evidence which doesn't support your beliefs, you revoke any real entitlement to be childish and stroppy when these faults get pointed out in your arguments, as they do, time and again.

    Just as I challange you to rebutt dendrochronology (which rubbishes any and all Global Flood theories and makes further discussion of whether the animals could fit in the Ark akin to calculating whether Icarus would have burned up on re-entry), and you refuse to do so (got to keep that house of cards up even if it's held with crazy glue, eh?), so to you have consistantly refused to answer other questions relating to your beliefs.

    I've asked you before; why is it so important to you that it is the letter that is true? Surely you are limiting the power of god as it could be by insisting that he could only do things in a way imagined by a bronze-age goat herd? Maybe there is a god, and rather than opening your heart and mind to what magnificance that might be you close your mind to it and worship a god made out of pages of a book - as ludicrous to me as the worship of idols would be to you. If you truely wish to worship a create of spirit, why are you bound to such a physical literal interpretation?

    Your insistance upon literality is an evil; it demands that God be a petulant child who confuses languages because men were being succesful, despite having been kicked out of Eden - just because some bronze-age goat herd imagined the story that way.

    Your literality demands that God be a sick beastial entity that would consign little girls to see their familes being killed in front of their eyes before being taken into sexual slavery, just as it says happened in Leviticus.

    Your literality is blashpemy against the chacter of god as I hope he might be if he exists. For if god is as interpretting the Bible literally requires, he's not a very nice person...

    Why hooberus? Is clinging to a raft of lead that essential to your beliefs?

    City Fan:

    My main take on the dendrochronology thing is that it provides rather simplistic, easily understandable techniques for proving beyond a doubt that the Creation and Flood accounts in the Bible are not literal.

    If these accounts are not literal, then it prevents people who would force their beliefs on others (and historically speaking, even if it isn't true now, such people would often force their sword between your ribs if they couldn't force their beliefs on you) claiming the Bible is god's inspired literal word which must be obeyed to the letter (as they interpret it).

    Well, it doesn't prevent them, it just makes them look silly, misguided and convinced of their own rightousess.

  • shamus
    shamus

    My cat's breath smells like cat food.

  • Country_Woman
    Country_Woman

    Back to the subject: "How did all the animals fit on Noah's Ark?"

    have you never heard of the Tardis ?

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