Is it clergy privilege? (page 3)

zeb

They tried to pull the 'clergy privilege' thing a t the ARC and got hammered. The justice had sited examples where the wt claims to not have clergy.

OnTheWayOut

Being accused of a crime by a child, any answer to the elders made by the accused would not be privilege.

Spontaneously (and prior to accusations) fully confessing such a crime, once reporting to HQ, privilege is lost. You don't really believe they report and leave his name out, do you? Seeking guidance for an anonymous person- maybe it still fits the privilege definition, providing that Watchtower actually admits to having a clergy class like many other Christian denominations.

And, in my opinion, even a full confession loses the privilege status once the matter goes beyond just congregation elders in the investigation stage- approaching the child with their guardian.

Clergy privilege is meant for believers to come clean with God and basically add the clergy person to their 5th Amendment right (or similar right to avoid self-admitting a crime).

shepherdless

Historically, penitent clergy privilege arose because of the following:

1. Catholics in particular were/are taught that if they don’t confess their sins at the Sacrement of Confession, they risk hell. For example, when I was a kid, if my dad found out that I had not been to confession for a few months, he would treat it like a medical emergency; he would look up which church was holding confession on that day, and drive me there.

2. It occurred to some law enforcement people, or litigants, that one way to dig up dirt on an accused or opposing litigant, was to subpoena their parish priest, and cross-examine the priest about all the bad things that individual had done.

This is clearly unfair. So the penitent was protected at law. Spousal privilege, legal professional privilege, and privilege in aid of settlement are other types of privilege designed to stop such unfairness.

The main point to note is that the privilege evolved to protect the PENITENT. It did NOT originate to protect the priest (or Elder).

Of course, the law on penitent clergy privilege in various countries and states has been codified, and because of the words of the statute (particularly in some US states) may be broader than that. However, I think it is outrageous that Watchtower is trying to use a type of privilege originally devised to protect a penitent, to instead protect itself and its elders.

AbusedandPissed

The thing that the law doesn't focus on but that is commonly misstated is that it must be a confession and if someone doesn't call themselves a clergy member, which WT does. The law says who is a member of the clergy and what is meant by the communicaiton. Look again at Kanasas law that again someone can prevent the member of the clergy from informing the authorities.

Notice that the communication can include that of seeking God's mercy or forgiveness, but it goes beyond that. It includes moral obligations. I have not done the research and cannot speak intelligently on if that would include seeking practical advice from a spiritual leader.

Also note how point "2) the term "regular minister of religion" means one who as his or her customary vocation preaches and teaches the principles of religion of a church, a religious sect, or organization of which he or she is a member,".

60-429. Penitential communication privilege. (a) Definitions. As used in this section, (1) the term "duly ordained minister of religion" means a person who has been ordained, in accordance with the ceremonial ritual, or discipline of a church, religious sect, or organization established on the basis of a community of faith and belief, doctrines and practices of a religious character, to preach and to teach the doctrines of such church, sect, or organization and to administer the rites and ceremonies thereof in public worship, and who as his or her regular and customary vocation preaches and teaches the principles of religion and administers the ordinances of public worship as embodied in the creed or principles of such church, sect, or organization; (2) the term "regular minister of religion" means one who as his or her customary vocation preaches and teaches the principles of religion of a church, a religious sect, or organization of which he or she is a member, without having been formally ordained as a minister of religion, and who is recognized by such church, sect, or organization as a regular minister; (3) the term "regular or duly ordained minister of religion" does not include a person who irregularly or incidentally preaches and teaches the principles of religion of a church, religious sect, or organization and does not include any person who may have been duly ordained a minister in accordance with the ceremonial, rite, or discipline of a church, religious sect or organization, but who does not regularly, as a vocation, teach and preach the principles of religion and administer the ordinances of public worship as embodied in the creed or principles of his or her church, sect, or organization; (4) "penitent" means a person who recognizes the existence and the authority of God and who seeks or receives from a regular or duly ordained minister of religion advice or assistance in determining or discharging his or her moral obligations, or in obtaining God's mercy or forgiveness for past culpable conduct; (5) "penitential communication" means any communication between a penitent and a regular or duly ordained minister of religion which the penitent intends shall be kept secret and confidential and which pertains to advice or assistance in determining or discharging the penitent's moral obligations, or to obtaining God's mercy or forgiveness for past culpable conduct.

scratchme1010

We all know that they have argued over clergy privilege when elder learn of a crime but keep quiet about it. Regardless of what one may feel about this, lets assume for a minute that they are correct.

I know. Sadly those same people who feel disgusted over the position of clergy on sexual abuse, are the same that support it when it comes to discrimination over other classes, oppression of the poor, insanely unclear tax exemptions, and the list goes on.

The problem is not the clergy. People shut up and pretend that they don't know, sometimes children's own parents.

I'd see a valid point against the exceptions to the clergy following the law, when people are consistent about it, not just when the clergy do things that they don't like, but then support when that applies to things that they do like.

AbusedandPissed

The Deleware court actually clarified this:

"If Section 909 were to be interpreted narrowly, the effect would be to advance certain religions over others. To apply Section 909 on a denomination by denomination basis, the Court would have to engage in an excessive entanglement with religion.

To avoid a finding that Section 909 is unconstitutional, the statute may be interpreted more generically. A broader reading may be justified because the terms at issue are neither defined, nor upper case (which could indicate that the terms are more akin to proper titles)."

"Conclusion

The Section 909 privilege exemption from the requirement to report child abuse and neglect, if narrowly interpreted, is unconstitutional on its face. The terms "priest," "penitent," and sacramental confession" literally apply only to select denominations. The Delaware Constitution prohibits laws that give preference to any religion. However, Section 909 potentially can be read to apply to all religions."

Finkelstein

The main problems concerning with clergy privilege regarding incidences of pedophilia ....

Weakly inappropriate action to protect the general public from sexual predators combined with the action by these organizations to protect the outward image of these religious groups.

Incorporate care of victims to these attacks and apathetic care of possible victims when an investigation is pursued by JWS Elders.

dogisgod

Since when are the Elders or the GB Clergy? Isn't their whole act based on being "unlettered and ordinary"?

Is it clergy privilege?

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