Did Jesus die on a stake or pole?

by sweetyj 50 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Sea Breeze

  And bringing death and suffering upon the whole human race, for just one act of disobedience is way way too much where the punishment doesnt Equal the offence. Total Injustice...

  Agreed, if God brought death upon the whole human race, that would be injustice. But, Adam disconnected from the source of life before procreating. Thereafter, Adam could only reproduce other disconnected life subject to decay... like his own.

  We are born children of Adam and are like him, That is why Jesus three times told Nicodemus that a person must be "born again" if they wish to have a different inheritance from a different father other than Adam.
  
  
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  smiddy3

  If the wages of sin is death { the Adamic sin spoken of in Genesis } then why did people in the Bible such as Lazarus ,and not him alone but others also ,who have died and been raised to life again , why did they need to die again ?

  The wages of sin is death ,if they have been raised to life again ,why would they die again ? They have been cleansed of their Adamic sin ,and no more need to die.

  The scriptures do not speak about another form of sin that produces death ,so why did they die ? again?

  Does that mean they are now subjected to the second death in Revelation ? including Lazarus ?
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  Sea Breeze

  why did people in the Bible such as Lazarus...need to die again ?

  Because they sinned in their body again after they were resurrected.
  
  In the NT, when a person is "born again" they receive a new sinless spirit. This is the "you" that God fellowships with, seals, and saves at the moment of a believers' acceptance . The body is not renewed, saved, or otherwise perfected until Jesus "comes in the clouds", at the last trump.... regardless of a resurrection in the interim or not.

  This renewed spirit is compared to a down -payment of the full inheritance which includes a "glorified body", one not subject to sin, decay and death.

  2 Cor. 1: 22 “Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest [down-payment, guarantee or interest-bearing characteristic] of the Spirit in our hearts.”
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  peacefulpete

  Sometimes they do like to nitpick only because somehow the tiniest of differences is supposed to set the org apart and make them the truth.

  That's it in a nutshell.

  But, Adam disconnected from the source of life before procreating. Thereafter, Adam could only reproduce other disconnected life subject to decay... like his own.
  

  
  There are many centuries worth of layers of theological elaboration in that comment.

  The debates about whether there was purpose to the death of Jesus raged for a couple hundred years. There were early Christians who believed Jesus escaped and another was killed in his place. They clearly did not have this doctrine. The primary rival Christian strain to the so called Church Fathers were the Docetic Christians. They felt that Jesus was not actually a human but only had the appearance of human. This group too did not have a substitutionary atonement doctrine. This group continued being influential until the NT manuscripts were being edited by the proto-orthodoxy ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-orthodox_Christianity) and even after. There are many verses that were altered for the precise purpose of refuting their teaching. We can see this in the existing manuscripts but have to assume more took place before prior to this. Even within the group that became dominant there were many variations of the doctrine. : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Substitutionary_atonement
• 

  road to nowhere

  Who cares? The worship of the cross is no different than worshipping the idea that it was a stake and arguing about it
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  jhine

  Trinitarians do not worship the cross , another JW myth .

  Jan
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  Earnest

  Doug Mason : At the time, my understanding was that the WTS said the merits of Jesus' death were applied solely to the 144,000. They appeared to confirm this wit their practice at their annual "Memorial". Is this still the case?

  Hi Doug, while this is slightly off-topic I should clarify that the WTS never taught that the merits of Jesus' death applied solely to the 144,000. They taught that the covenant for a kingdom only applied to the 144,000 but the merits of his death are available to all.
  
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  Sea Breeze

  Both Doug and Ernest are correct.
  
  To clarify: The watchtower teaches that the New Testament contract which guarantees forgiveness of sins (Mt. 26: 27-28) only applies to an imaginary group called "The 144K" which, according to them, started with the apostles and stretched throughout history until 1935.
  
  The REAL 144K pictured in Revelation are a future group of actual Jews who evangelize the world as witnesses for Jesus just prior to his second coming.
  
  So, since the group that the WT says that the sin-forgiving contract (new covenant) applies to has never existed, then under their teaching no one has their sins forgiven!
  
  The WT states that others outside of the imaginary 144K group can still be friends of God outside of the New Covenant. But, the WT must rely on old testament imagery featuring Abraham being God's friend as support. They cannot find even one New Testament verse to support such nonsense. They are literally claiming that we can be God's friend by disobeying Jesus concerning the new covenant!

  Here's a link to the article with some of my scribbles.

  http://bibleready.org/uploads/WT_6-15-2011_PG_15_Rebuttal_Version.pdf
  
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  Diogenesister

  Oh wow sea breeze that's dynamite!
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  OnTheWayOut

  Asking "Did Jesus die this way or that way?" stifles the argument that Jesus existed at all.
  You presuppose it isn't all a fairy tale.
  
  "Did the elves approach Santa Claus to make toys or did Santa go to them?"