Revelation stuff per request for PetrW

by EasyPrompt 33 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • EasyPrompt
    EasyPrompt

    Per request from PetrW🙂, some Revelation stuff...


    The four horsemen didn't start in 1914 or earlier- the timing is once Jesus is enthroned in heaven.


    The four angels holding back the winds of destruction are said to be at Euphrates, which was by Babylon. Babylon/religion. The winds of destruction are on the religious institutions.


    The plagues in ancient Egypt were on religious fakers, to expose them. The plagues in Elijah's day exposed religious fakers. The plagues in Revelation expose religious fakers.


    The plagues are not literal. They are figurative. Other parts of the Bible show that "hail" (like in Isaiah) can mean exposing lies. "Locusts" can mean other nations coming to take your stuff.


    When the Watchtower (and other religious institutions) are torn down by governments taking away the real estate/financial holdings/etc, it will be clear Jesus has been enthroned in heaven and is figuratively "riding the white horse".


    The congregations of Revelation represent all groups who claim to be Christian. They've all got issues. When Jesus is enthroned, he'll clean things up and get rid of the divisions.


    The "angels" of Revelation chapter 1 are actually "angels", not "elders".


    Spirit creatures can materialize. In the latter part of Revelation when it talks about the New Jerusalem coming down out of heaven and God's tent with mankind, that implies those in the kingdom government and Jesus and Jehovah himself will visibly and individually interact with those on earth, not just from a distance, just like in Eden God walked with Adam every day in the breezy part of the day.


    "He will wipe every tear out of their eyes."


    God is not partial. The whole universal family will get to hang out.

  • BoogerMan
    BoogerMan

    "When Jesus is enthroned, he'll clean things up and get rid of the divisions".....

    .....as shown by, Revelation 2:22 - Look! I am about to throw her into a sickbed, and those committing adultery with her into great tribulation.......

    .....followed by, Revelation 7:14 - "And he said to me: “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation..." (the one he mentioned about 8 minutes previously)


    JW's will be sorely disappointed when their G.T. expectations don't materialise.

  • EasyPrompt
    EasyPrompt
    PetrW: "One of the hardest questions I find is the connection between the book of Daniel and Revelation...etc. etc. These questions are many and many."


    The "time, times and half a time" and the "42 months" and "1,290" and "1,260" and are all within the time of the great tribulation, which is 3 1/2 years.


    Daniel, Revelation, and the gospels show that "the appointed times of the nations" are the 3 1/2 years during the great tribulation.


    The feet of the Daniel chapter 2 dream image is the same as the UN depicted in Revelation, which comes out of the US/UK. The Daniel visions in chapter 7,8, and 11/12 also depict this outgrowth from a slightly different perspective.


    It is during the rule of the UN for 3 1/2 years that all religious institutions will be attacked and destroyed.


    Some other stuff...


    The great crowd that survives Armageddon includes people who today are not necessarily religious, just like a great crowd of non-Israelites went out of Egypt with the Jews after the Egyptian religion was destroyed.


    There are no "new scrolls" like the GB teaches. The "scrolls" in that chapter of Revelation are just talking about what people do later during the 1000 year reign.

  • PetrW
    PetrW

    Thank you! Where to start? 🤔

    EP: The four horsemen didn't start in 1914 or earlier- the timing is once Jesus is enthroned in heaven.

    PW: Leaving aside 1914, the identity of the four horsemen is a matter of some debate. Ever since the earliest (extant) commentaries on Revelation (see Victorinus of Ptus, 250-304), there have been disputes about the identity of the horsemen, whether the first horseman is Christ himself or the Antichrist, and how the other horsemen harm people and the earth. So there are generally two main directions: that the 1st rider on the white horse is Christ, or that the 1st rider is the Antichrist. All interpretations then tend to agree that the subsequent horsemen bring physical hardship in the form of wars, famine and disease, and vicious animals, affecting 1/4 of the planet...

    For completeness, I should add that the JWs again chose not entirely wrong (the 1st horseman is Christ), which is a better choice than the Antichrist, but the weakness of the JW interpretation is often discussed: the Christ, as the Lamb, is the one who opens the seals, which is probably why he doesn't jump from horse to horse. Most importantly: John does not particularly describe the rider himself. Jesus Himself, as the rider, only appears - in an active role - as the victorious King in chapter 19. If he was already riding out now, why would he be riding out in chapter 19? Furthermore, in the 5th seal, the symbolic souls do not perceive the activity of the horsemen as judgment. Therefore, it must be something else.

    But typical of JWs, they don't level with their opponents anywhere. Either they are ignorant of them or they silently ignore them and appropriate their interpretations, which can be traced back through the centuries, and again silently pass them off to their "sheep" as God's revealed, one, true and actual light...

    So I will try to look at it differently!

    The key to revealing the identity of the 4 horsemen is the statement about the plagues that will strike 1/4 of the earth.

    However, two insertions are necessary here:

    1. Christ

    2. theodicea's question

    Re 1: Revelation is given to Jesus and as the angel tells John in 19:10 so it is true that Jesus' sayings, are spirit i.e. an invisible, moving force to interpret the mystery i.e. literally: prophecy. And since Revelation is a book of prophecy, Jesus' sayings are the first source for the exegesis of Revelation. This is known, but less often, it is applied...

    Ad 2: Theodicy is a difficult question. I'll keep it to the absolute minimum: God is love, and he has placed his love above his justice and righteousness. Love does not nullify law and justice, but those who fail to use love will be confronted and God's law and justice (and wrath). God does not put out a smoldering wick and break a broken stalk => the goal of Revelation is the salvation of people, not their slaughter by 1/4 or 1/3. Again, everyone knows this, but few consistently apply....

    So as I wrote above, the key to interpreting Revelation is Jesus. So did Jesus ever talk about there being four kinds of earth, and from what would one infer that there is 1/4 of an earth? In my opinion, yes, and it is a parable about four types of land.

    It is his famous parable from Matt 13 ch. where the grain falls on the road, the rock, the thorns and the good soil. Jesus then goes on to give another parable in Matt. 13:24, specifying the situation where the grain does come up, but immediately weeds appear. The field (land) is the world. Here, in my opinion, is the 1/4 we are looking for.

    From this perspective, it is then easy to deduce the identity of the four horsemen when in Matt 13:39 Jesus explains the parable, and says that the reapers are angels and the harvest is the end of the ages.

    So the revelation begins quite unobtrusively, like a thief in the night, the angels, at the call from heaven, set out to reap the firstfruits => those who have already ripened, to destroy the weeds, to do no harm to those who are not yet ripe...they are only interested in God's field, where God's sons and daughters are. That's why they work on 1/4 of the earth. That is why it is said that wheat and barley are of equal value. It has nothing to do with some physical famine. It is a picture that wheat i.e. sons and daughters of God will be three times less than barley i.e. people who are not Christians but still behave as described in the Beatitudes in the Sermon on the Mount. Like oil and wine: these are the ones who are merciful, healing "wounds" like wine, anointing "pains" like oil. Why should God punish them? I remind you: he will not break the broken grass...

    Are hunger, the sword, and animals literal plagues then? In their case, no: they induce spiritual hunger, for the receptive, they divide with the sword of the spirit the right from the wrong, they impose the yoke => the law of Christ on those who want to follow it. Those who are afflicted with wounds, those wounds are to bring them to repentance, because if they don't, they will fall victim to death, they will have to hope for a resurrection from the sheol/hades, and some will fall victim to an even worse wound: the animals, to be discovered later. And getting out of the power of the animals will be even more difficult, at which time the wrath of God will really be revealed...

    All this will happen quite subtly, there may be real wars, pandemics, earthquakes, famines in the world. People will be really preoccupied with the problems of this world. But sometimes, in such a situation, quite unobtrusively, up there, one seal will break and from the throne of God will be heard: go...

  • EasyPrompt
  • EasyPrompt
  • EasyPrompt
    EasyPrompt

    ...(sorry, double posted, didn't post at first!)

  • EasyPrompt
    EasyPrompt

    Revelation 19:11-16 makes clear that Jesus is the same as the rider of the white horse, the first of the "four horsemen".


    "I saw heaven opened, and look! a white horse. And the one seated on it is called Faithful and True, and he judges and carries on war in righteousness. His eyes are a fiery flame, and on his head are many diadems. He has a name written that no one knows but he himself, and he is clothed with an outer garment stained with blood, and he is called by the name The Word of God. Also, the armies in heaven were following him on white horses, and they were clothed in white, clean, fine linen. And out of his mouth protrudes a sharp, long sword with which to strike the nations, and he will shepherd them with a rod of iron. Moreover, he treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. On his outer garment, yes, on his thigh, he has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords."


    Zechariah chapter one shows that the imagery of the four horsemen symbolized God's judgment against those who claimed to represent Him.


    The ride of the four horsemen in Revelation is just one of several images that depicts the destruction of religious institutions, which doesn't begin until after Jesus is enthroned in heaven and kicks the Devil down.


    Isaiah speaks of hail, flood, etc figuratively, as here in Isaiah 28:2


    "Look! Jehovah has someone strong and mighty.

    Like a thundering hailstorm, a destructive windstorm,

    Like a thunderstorm of powerful floodwaters,

    He will forcefully hurl it down to the earth."


    ...and again at Isaiah 28:17...


    "And I will make justice the measuring line

    And righteousness the leveling tool.

    The hail will sweep away the refuge of lies,

    And the waters will flood out the hiding place."


    These judgments were against the religious people who claimed to be representing the Most High God.


    In context in that same chapter, Isaiah prophetically refers to Jesus as our sure foundation during that time of upcoming tribulation.


    "Therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah says: “Here I am laying as a foundation in Zion a tested stone,

    The precious cornerstone of a sure foundation.

    No one exercising faith will panic.""


    Verse 21 says: "For Jehovah will rise up as at Mount Pe·raʹzim;

    He will rouse himself as in the valley near Gibʹe·on,

    That he may do his deed—his strange deed—

    And that he may carry out his work—his unusual work."


    The plagues of Revelation are not literal. The attack on religious institutions will be like figurative earthquakes for many people.

  • PetrW
    PetrW

    EP: The plagues of Revelation are not literal. The attack on religious institutions will be like figurative earthquakes for many people.

    PW: Literal (physical) versus figurative (symbolic) in Revelation...

    Revelation was given in signs, in pictures, which according to nothing but parables. So I will personally examine whether a literal fulfillment is possible. If I find that a literal interpretation, for example, makes God an even greater murderer than Satan, then I consider the figurative, symbolic meaning.

    So I understand the plagues that are described in Revelation symbolically - I don't think Revelation addresses their "technical" execution, for the simple reason that the symbolic scenes could have been realized in the 5th or 13th or 19th century. But they may not occur until the 23rd century. Thus, in my view, revelation reveals processes and relationships between entities. It does not address how the last king will destroy Babylon the Great - what instruments he will use to do so. It is a description of who, when, whom and why he will attack with what result. Names, addresses, places are not the subject of Revelation. On the one hand, it is clear that the plagues will somehow physically take place in our real world, but on the other hand, specific names or places are not important - just as it is towards the past: the Exodus tells us that there was a king in Egypt, that he was a Pharaoh. The name, the origin, his relations to the outside world were not important to the writers of Exodus. Just a pharaoh who drowned.

    In addition to this explanation regarding the literal/symbolic, I have another argument, and that is the answer to the question of what constitutes Babylon the Great*. I also reject here the "materialization" into any particular church or all churches or the UN or the EU or OPEC or who knows what else...

    Again, what I wrote above applies here, in my opinion: Revelation could have been fulfilled in the 5th or 19th century. Therefore, looking for a specific entity behind the symbolic Great Babylon is a pointless effort. The history of the interpretation of Revelation supports me....

    *what I believe is the Great Babylon, sometime later... I need to walk the dog!✌️😁

  • EasyPrompt
    EasyPrompt

    The end of Daniel chapter 11 and beginning of Daniel chapter 12 identifies the timing of when the tribulation/plagues of Revelation begin to take place.


    "But reports out of the east and out of the north will disturb him, and he will go out in a great rage to annihilate and to devote many to destruction. And he will plant his royal tents between the grand sea and the holy mountain of Decoration; and he will come all the way to his end, and there will be no helper for him. During that time Miʹcha·el will stand up, the great prince who is standing in behalf of your people. And there will occur a time of distress such as has not occurred since there came to be a nation until that time."


    The rest of Daniel chapter 12 includes..."It will be for an appointed time, appointed times, and half a time. As soon as the dashing to pieces of the power of the holy people comes to an end, all these things will come to their finish." Three and a half years.


    And..."“And from the time that the constant feature has been removed and the disgusting thing that causes desolation has been put in place, there will be 1,290 days."


    The parallel visions of the march of certain world powers in Daniel chapters 2, 7, and 8 show that we are coming to the time discussed in Daniel chapter 11/12.


    It is during the time we are in right now that Jesus will take the throne in heaven. We don't know the day or the hour, but when it happens the Devil will be cast down, the UN riled up, religious institutions attacked, 3 1/2 years of tribulation, etc.

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