3 heavens?

yxl1

2 Corinthians 12

1 I must go on boasting. Although there is nothing to be gained, I will go on to visions and revelations from the Lord. 2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know--God knows.

Does anyone have an explanation for what this third heaven is, other than the one given in the “Jesus Mysteries” which states that it is a reference to the seven pagan heavens? A book title, URL, or personal opinion will suffice.

shotgun

Paul did acid!

Narkissos

The hierarchy of heavens is a typical feature of Jewish and/or Christian "apocalyptic" literature, but the number of heavens varies: 5 in 3 Baruch, 7 in Testament of Levi or 10 in 1 (Ethiopian) Hénoch. The "third heaven" of 2 Corinthians 12:2 is equated with "paradise" in v. 4, which corresponds to 2 (Slavonic) Henoch 8:1.

Satanus

Obe* or astral trip, or paul was just trying to establish his credibility w jews.

* out of body experience.

SS

elamona

Jesus Himself said that there were many abodes. He told the Apostles:"My Father has many abodes and I go to prepare a place for you". Since we don't really know what a post Armageddon universe will "look" like there may be more than one heaven. There may be more than one now. Scientists say that our universe has at least 10 dimensions, the four we know about and others that can only be mathematically deduced at this time. Apparently physicists have observed some strange "occurances" in their experiments that demonstrate the existence of other dimensions. Non-locality of subatomic particles is something that they say takes place under certain conditions. This could only happen if the universe is more than 4 dimensional.

greatteacher

Heaven and Hell by Aldous Huxley helps support Shotgun's explanation.

City Fan

I agree with SS,

Looks like someone had an out of body experience, or at least said they did!!

Leolaia

Rabbinical and pseudepigraphal literature refers to seven or ten heavens. Paradise is located in the third of the seven, or the seventh of the ten. This is obviously what the reference in 2 Corinthians is to. This is what we find in the Jewish Haggadah on the assumption of Enoch into heaven:

"They [the angels] took him from thence to the third heaven, where they showed him Paradise, with all the trees of beautiful colors, and their fruits, ripe and luscious, and all kinds of food which they produced, springing up with delightful fragrance. In the midst of Paradise he saw the tree of life, in that place in which God rests when He comes into Paradise. This tree cannot be described for its excellence and sweet fragrance, and it is beautiful, more than any created thing, and on all its sides it is like gold and crimson in appearance, and transparent as fire, and it covers everything. From its root in the garden there go forth four streams, which pour out honey, milk, oil, and wine, and they go down to the Paradise of Eden, that lies on the confines between the earthly region of corruptibility and the heavenly region of incorruptibility, and thence they go along the earth. He also saw the three hundred angels who keep the garden, and with never-ceasing voices and blessed singing they serve the Lord every day. The angels leading Enoch explained to him that this place is prepared for the righteous, while the terrible place prepared for the sinners is in the northern regions of the third heaven. He saw there all sorts of tortures, and impenetrable gloom, and there is no light there, but a gloomy fire is always burning. And all that place has fire on all sides, and on all sides cold and ice, thus it burns and freezes. And the angels, terrible and without pity, carry savage weapons, and their torture is unmerciful." (Haggadah, 12a)

As I discussed in earlier threads, both Paradise and Gehenna were originally viewed as in Sheol -- in the underworld. This underworld was variously believed to be at the edge of the world (as Paradise was planted in the East), or subterranean. Then this changed into a belief that inside Paradise there was a "gate to heaven", and then this changed further into a belief that Paradise itself was located in heaven. The notion was that Paradise (the Garden of Eden) was preserved into heaven (and thus not destroyed in Noah's Flood) and will descended onto the earth again at the final age (cf. Revelation). Then finally the Haggadah represents the most advanced stage, where both Paradise and Gehenna are located in heaven. This is the also what we find in 2 Enoch of his tour of the seven heavens:

"The ascension of Enoch to the first heaven. And they took me up on their wings and carried me up to first heaven. And they put me down there. They led before my face their movements and their aberrations from year to year. And they showed me in the light the angels who govern the stars, the heavenly constellations. And they showed me there a vast ocean, much bigger than the earthly ocean. And the angels were flying with their wings. And they showed me there the treasuries of the snow and the cold, terrible angels were guarding the treasuries.... And those men took me up to the second heaven. And they set me down on the second heaven. And they showed me the prisoners under guard, in measureless judgment. And there I saw the condemned angels, weeping. And I said to the men who were with me, 'Why are they tormented?' The men answered me, 'They are evil rebels against the Lord, who did not listen to the voice of the Lord, but they consulted their own will.' And I felt sorry for them....And the men took me from there. They brought me up to the third heaven. And they placed me in the midst of Paradise. And that place has an appearance of pleasantness that has never been seen. Every tree was in full flower. Every fruit was ripe, every food was in yield profusely; every fragrance was pleasant. And the four rivers were flowing past with gentle movement, with every kind of good food. And the tree of life is in that place, under which the Lord takes a rest when the Lord takes a walk in Paradise. And that tree is indescribable for pleasantness of fragrance....And the men carried me away from there and they made me go up to the northern heaven; and they showed me there a very frightful place; every kind of torture and torment is in that place, and darkness and gloom. And there is no light there, but a black fire blazes up perpetually, and a river of fire is coming out over the whole place.... And the men lifted me up from there and they carried me up to the fourth heaven. And they showed me there all the movements and displacements and all the rays of light of the soon and moon....And the men carried me away to the east of heaven. And they showed me the gates through which the sun goes out according to the appointed seasons..... And the men picked me up from there and carried me away to the fifth heaven. And there I saw many armies and Grigori [the angels that sinned]. And their appearance was like the appearance of a human being, and their size was larger than that of giants.... And those men took me from there and they carried me up to the sixth heaven. And there I saw seven angels, grouped together, brilliant and very glorious. And their radiance was like the radiance of the sun when it shines.... And the men lifted me up from there, and they carried me up to the seventh heaven. And I saw a great light, and all the fiery armies of the incorporeal ones, archangels, angels, and the shining otanim stations. And they showed me from a distance the Lord, sitting on his throne. And all the heavenly armies assembled, according to rank, advancing and doing obeisance to the Lord. And they withdrew and went into their places of joy and merriment, immeasureable light, but gloriously serving him." (2 Enoch 3:1-20:4)

If you read some of my older posts on hell, the ascension of King David, and so forth, there are more quotes on third heaven from 1 Enoch, the Life of Adam and Eve, and many other pseudepigraphal works. The concept of blessedness in a third heaven is also found in the Upanishads and in Buddhism -- it is possible that the Jews borrowed the concept from Persian influence.

This is one great example of how the pseudepigrapha shed light on obscure things in scripture.

Leolaia

yxl1

Thanks for your efforts Leoliaia, for what is a very interesting post. I was secretly hoping either you or pete answered my question as I've always enjoyed reading your posts. (yours, not petes LOL) I've made a quick tour of some of your earlier posts for pseudepigraphical works mentioned.

thanks again

yxl1

peacefulpete

Thanks alot. Narkissos and Leolaia are correct. The author of 2 Cor accepted the popular description of heaven as multiplaned. The Jewish lit was heavily salted with Greek thought and this is a classic example. The questions are, did Paul write it? Does the fact that Jewish thought had adopted the "pagan" idea require that the writer of 2 Cor be using them as his source or was it dependent upon Greek mysteries directly? Was the writer tripping (mushrooms ?), as was common for the mystery cults?

3 heavens?

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