I'm a new study, unsure a little uncertain. Help??

by Meow921 32 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • aChristian
    aChristian

    Jehovah's Witnesses tell us that Jesus died on a "torture stake" and not on a cross. They point out that the Greek word used in the New Testament which is commonly translated as "cross" primarily means an upright stake or pole. However, it is also known from several reliable historical sources that the Romans did in fact often attach a cross piece to a stake or pole when using that stake or pole as an instrument of torture and execution. So, how can we know if the Romans attached a cross piece to the stake or pole which Jesus was nailed to? I believe there are several indications in the Bible that Christ did, in fact, die on a "cross."

    First of all, John 20:25 indicates that "nails" (plural) were driven through Jesus' hands at the time of his execution. Two nails, one through each hand, would have been required to nail Jesus to a cross, but only one nail would have been needed to hold both of Jesus' hands to a torture stake, if his arms were raised over his head with his hands together. For this reason, pictures in the Society's publications of Jesus on a torture stake always show only one nail through both of Christ's hands. So, John 20:25 seems to point to a cross as the instrument used to put Jesus to death.

    Also to be considered is the fact that the Bible tells us a sign was placed "over his head" at the time of Christ's death. (Mt. 27:37) However, the Society's pictures of Christ on a torture stake always show this sign placed over Christ's hands, not directly over his head. Why? Because if Christ's arms were raised over his head and his hands were then nailed to a torture stake there would have been no room to attach such a sign "over his head." Now, I suppose it may be said that any sign that was attached to a torture stake over Jesus' hands would have also been "over his head." But if that sign was actually attached over Christ's hands, as the Society's pictures of Jesus on a torture stake illustrate, why did Matthew say that sign was placed "over his head" rather than "over his hands?"

    Then there are the Old Testament symbolisms which many believe point to the fact that Christ would die on a cross. One, mentioned here in an earlier post, is the blood that was splashed "upon the two doorposts and the upper part of the doorway" during the Jews' Passover celebration. (Ex.12:7) This cross of blood is believed by many Christians to have pointed to the fact that Jesus Christ would later shed his blood on a cross at Passover time for the forgiveness of our sins.

    More convincing, I believe, is another historical account in the Old Testament. Many Bible scholars are certain that it was meant to prefigure the fact that Christ would die on a cross. That account is found in Exodus 17:11,12. There we read how the Israelites were only victorious in battle when Moses' hands were held up for him, "one on one side and one on the other." It is said that this account was meant by God to point to the time when mankind would gain victory over sin and death, a victory which would only be gained when Jesus' hands were held up for him on the cross, "one on one side and one on the other."

    The WTS is quite alone in asserting this view that Jesus was killed on a simple stake. No religious denomination that I know of supports the WTS here, except some very few "Name"-groups in the United States. More importantly, no historian in the world (secular or religious) currently agrees with the WTS that there is any evidence whatsoever that Jesus died on a stake without a crossbeam. Neither have the WTS ever presented the slightest bit of real evidence for its claims.

    A fact quite ignored by the WTS, is that there is definite extrabiblical evidence to the exact shape of the "stauros," and this shape is the cross, a T with a lowered crossbeam.

    First, there are quite a few descriptions in early Christian texts. Note that these were written while the Biblical Greek language was still alive, and while the cruel execution practice we call crucifixion was still carried out by the Romans.

    The Christian apologist Justin, writing about 160 CE (long before Constantine) made mention of the shape of the cross at least twice:

    "And the human form differs from that of the irrational animals in nothing else than in its being erect and having its hands extended . .. and this shows no other form than that of the cross." (Justin Martyr: "First Apology" in Roberts & Donaldson (ed): Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol I, Eerdmans 1969, p. 181)

    "For the one beam is placed upright, from which the highest extremity is raised up into a horn, when the other beam is fitted on to it, and the ends appear on both sides as horns joined on to the one horn." (Justin's "Dialogue With Trypho", Chap XC in ANF, p. 245)

    A few decades later Irenaeus wrote:

    "The very form of the cross, too, has five extremities, two in length, two in bredth, and one in the middle, on which [last] the person rests who is fixed by the nails." (Irenaeus' "Against Heresies", Chap XXIV in ANF p. 395)

    In 197 AD the Christian writer Tertullian wrote:

    "Every piece of timber which is fixed in the ground in an erect position is a part of a cross, and indeed the greater portion of its mass. But an entire cross is attributed to us, with its transverse beam, of course, and its projecting seat." (Tertullian in "Ad Nationes" Chap XI in ANF, Vol III, p. 122)

    Note that these writers lived in a period when Crucifixions were still carried out, and could see these horribly executions firsthand. Both Justin and Tertullian referred to cases where Christians were crucified (See ANF, Vol I, p. 254; Vol III, p. 28).

    We even find testimony about the form of the cross by early non-Christian writers. The Greek writer Lukianos (c. 120-180 AD) wrote that the letter T had received its "evil meaning" because of the "evil instrument tyrants put up to hang people upon them. (Lukianos in "Iudicium Vocalium 12", in Martin Hengel in Crucifixion, Fortress Press, 1982, pp. 8,9)

    Together, this overwhelming evidence speaks for itself. Why the Watchtower Society has gone to such great lengths to create a completely imaginary case for a "stauros" with no crossbeam is puzzling, but it no doubt have something to do with a need to distinguish itself from other denominations. It should also demonstrate for all how little regard the WTS have for truth. All this information has been made available to the WTS many times, including medical evidence for Christ's crucifixion.

    It is a fact that the way Jesus' execution is depicted in Watchtower publications would have killed him in about six minutes.

    Already in 1948 did the Austrian doctor Hermann Moedder demonstrate that if you hang a person with his hands right up, he will die from suffocation within about six minutes. This has been confirmed a number of times, lately by a professor in pathology with the University of Columbia, who also demonstrated experimentally that if the person is nailed with his arms outright in an angle of 60-70 degrees, he can live for several hours. His work also showed that it is possible to nail a person to a cross through the hands, not necessarily the wrist as earlier indicated. (Frederick T. Zugibe: "Two Questions About Crucifixion" in Bible Review , April 1989)

    This evidence shows definitely that it isn't even anatomically possible for Jesus to have been crucified as shown in Watchtower publications.

    But isn't the Cross a pagan symbol? Sure. And among the ancient pagan nations who had crosses were the Romans, who selected the torture device that was used to kill Jesus. It's very strange that the WTS has this obsession with the cross being a "pagan symbol", and then argues that a pole, which is described many times as a pagan fertility symbol in the Bible, was used to kill Jesus.

  • tracysdad
    tracysdad

    The Roman method of crucifixion in Latin was called a "crux." "Cross" is the English word. Also, the "stauros" was the stake in the ground. The person being crucified usually carried their own crossbeam to the site.

  • Gozz
    Gozz

    aChristian,

    that post was insightful. Thank you.

  • seedy3
    seedy3

    Outnfree is quiet correct, in the translation of the word stauros, is stake-pole-post, ect. But now if you think about it even in english the pole or post can have a cross member and still be called a post or pole, an example of this is the "telephone pole" which most have a cross member, or the "clothesline post" also with a cross member, so it would not be wrong in greek to use a simular word to refer to a torture "stake", "pole", or "post" and it still have a cross member cross member on it. Otherwise we might have telephone "crosses", LOL.

    I edited this becasue I forgot to mention something. The WTS has at times admitted that later in the roman empire that the cross was adopted as a form of exicution, but it was suppose to have been long after the death of Jesus. BUTTTTT, just receintly there was a descovery of a body of a man dating to the time or near the time of Jesus that had evidence that he WAS put on a CROSS as a form of exicution, and not an upright single member stake or pole as the WTS claims. I would have to research this again to find out who it was and when it was found, I should have made a mental note about it, but I'm getting too old for mental notes I have write them. LOL

  • larc
    larc

    Brothern and Sistern,

    Meow, posted this on June 7 and never returned. I think we ended up talking to ourselves.

  • mouse69
    mouse69

    Hello! First I want to tell you that, if you are unsure then God is telling you something. Listen to him and PRAY! I was raised in the faith of the JW's, now, I have found things that were actually printed in their books and magazines. I wouls be more than happy to show you what I have found. Please rememebr that god says not to judge. HE(JEHOVAH) is THE judge. But JW's call themselves the true prophets, and the true religion. They are judging themselves, and say they will survive, and no one else. I have some actual documentation from the WTBTS, that will open your eyes.

  • Jason
    Jason

    Hey, if you don't know anything about the Bible, God, and what the Bible says about God, then yes, everything the JWs tell you will SOUND logical. That doesn't mean it is.

    If you want some real truth. Ask me. And no, I'm not one of those zealots who comes on here to attack people. I just happen to know the truth very well.

    [email protected]

  • alliwannadoislive
    alliwannadoislive

    how come Meow hasn't bothered to come back and check out all these cool replies then huh ?

  • Theo Cratz
    Theo Cratz

    With regards to what Outnfree said:
    <QUOTE>The assertion that Jesus returned invisibly in 1914 is just that -- an assertion. There is no Biblical proof to support it, and it isn't even the original date the Society published for his return, if you dig into its history.</QUOTE>

    It has always puzzled me why Jehovah's Witnesses still celebrate the Lord Supper. After all if it says in 1 Corinthians 11:26 "For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup you proclamim the Lord's death TILL HE RETURNS"

    Why then do they still celebrate the Lord's supper every year? Surely if he returned in 1914 then they should have stopped then?

  • 2bfound
    2bfound

    Theo, I like your last comment:

    "Why then do they still celebrate the Lord's supper every year? Surely if he returned in 1914 then they should have stopped then?"

    I doubt you will get a reply here? I like your site very much too.
    Are you a former JW?
    God bless

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit