I always see spirits, gnomes, elves, unicorns, banshees, demons, angels, and floating shit! I even saw the blob from the movie the blob.
A must read for rationalists: Banshees, Bugles and Belles: True Ghost Stories of Georgia by Barbara Duffey. This book will change your entire system of thought. Shit! it's a must read for everybody!
Nathan's example about the boiling water can be elaborated on. Let's say for example that we put a pot on a stovetop, turn on the heat and walk away. We return ten minutes later and the water is frozen. What is your first thought related to the water? Is it that god or some demon is involved? Hopefully not, hopefully you check to see if the stove works, or if your furnace works, or something that provides a rational explanation. Would you turn the heat off and back on? Or would you get down on your knees and pray to god about the stove, asking him to help you get some boiling water?
The point is that when scientists or rationalists don't know how something happened or why something is, they experiment and ask questions! They don't say it's supernatural or that god is involved, demons are involved, ghosts are involved, the unknown is involved. That's the difference you believers never seem to understand!
rem, nathan, and the other rationalists, great arguments!
Why does God allow people to develop 'forbidden' special powers?
by SM62 197 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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greatteacher
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dolphman
SeattleNiceGuy, sorry it took so long to post back but here's my answer to your question.
Actually what really disturbed me the most IS the actual pronounciation. Because i no longer sound as if "I" am making them. I think my girlfriend found this the most frightening thing about it. They are long and drawn out, and I'm able to trill my "r"s (Like the spanish do). I normally am not so good at this.There are also very bass heavy. There is long resonance to them as well.
In any case, the best idea i can come up with is that i'm accesing a part of my conciousness that isn't accessed in normal everyday life. And these sanskrit words, although in the sanskrit language, are actually just primordial sounds of the "super-conciousness" that we all have access to, or what the Yogis consider "God conciousness". Although Sankrit is fully functioning written spoken language (or at least it was, it's more like Latin now.), these sounds, or "bija" or "seed syllables" existed before Sanskrit came into being. Sankrit is the only language that incorporates them.
Sometimes though, I'll do more than just speak a short mantra...I've gone off into long sentences. And sometimes, I'm speaking some other languages as well. I'll sometimes say "ha he hu" over and over again or just say "HU". I looked up both on the internet and "HU" is a sufi word for the name of god. It's actually got an aramaic background. "Ha He Hu" is a martial arts chant i think used by polynesians.
You live in Seattle right? Maybe sometime I can show you myself. It would be good to get someone who's more of a rationalist/skeptic to witness these events. There realitively easy to perform at this point. It's an awkward spectical. It looks at first as If I'm being choked when it happens. Which is what led me to believe it was demons. But I soon got over that.
--dolphman
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Abaddon
LT:
I understand that Abaddon did exactly this. He commented on this point recently.
Yup. Out of two people who have claimed to read auras I've met, both said exactly the same thing as regards colour.
This proves precisely nothing. To further complicate things, I'd thought of the colour/s they mentioned as the colours of my aura, on the rare occasions I've thought about it, and they named the same colour/colours.
So, to be precise, those two people prove precisely nothing with regard to seeing auras or mind reading. What could be interpreted as an ability to do one or the other is probably a coincidence.
If it's not a coincidence you could easily stage experiments where you had 'readers' ideas about people's aura colours compared in a proper controlled test. This has not been done, and there's no reason it hasn't been done, as always seems to be the case with the paranormal.
In situations where someone claims 'a', and could prove 'a' definitively but has not done so, I assume 'b'; that they're talking through their hat. This is not Occam's Razor, but a varient, Abaddon's Flick-Knife.
Believe it or not, science isn't the be-all and end-all of existence, my friend.
As has been stated, actually, most people alive today would be dead if it were not for science, or, to be precise, they would never have been born. Let us 'wind it back' to, say, 1750. Now make history go forward again and remove every scientific advance made since then. When you arrived in 2004, the population would be an awful lot lower than it is today and those that lived would have a lower quality of life. I think this shows your above statement to be erroneous... try erogenous next time, it's more fun...
xena:
Because they are the ones that don't believe it, therefore the burden of proof or lack thereof is up to them.
That attitude is fine if you're willing to believe without proof, which you obviously are. See my comment about paradigms. In 'the real world' it's commonly accepted the proof of the assertation lies with the asserter, and that those who don't want to prove something have something to hide.
Put it this way, if we were discussing investment of money rather than paranormal, everyone would agree that someone investing their money without proof of the wild claims (as in not everyday) was a credulous fool. Change the subject from 'money' to paranormal and people who scoff at the unproved claims are suddenly 'unreasonable'.
Yeah, of course, I see it now...
This WAS a nice discussion...ah well the moral majority Jehovahs witnesses rabid skepics have shown up...
Yes, again, I believe that's point 7 from my first post. Your rejection of requests for reasonable proof is akin to Dubbies rejection of similar requests. ANd you were the rudest of everyone previous to you, so what's your point again?
I don't mind skepics, but I do mind intolerance and ridicule.
But you do it so well! Look, the colour of your daughter's eyes is not something you use to gain money or power or prestige. At the end of the day, most claims of the paranormal have some such motive at their base, even if the person making the claims actually believes them or is unwilling to admit that such claims might have less than pure motivations, consious or otherwise.
As such, your example is invalid; your claims don't matter to anyone, as the colour of your daughter's eyes is inconsequential to the world. Someone being duped into paying money for contacting their dead auntie is being manipulated and a lot of people think that you should not stand idly by and watch people being screwed, even if they think they're not being screwed and/or think that being screwed is good for them.
Follow your logic to its limit and one should shut down this board, as who cares if the dubbies get screwed? They must like it if they let it happen!
berten; your postulation regarding skeptics ignores the different paradigms used in determining reality and assumes a skeptical position is one of automatic negation of unprovable claims, rather than one where judgement is suspended until evidence one way or the other is forthcoming.
plmkrzy:
Does anyone remember scientists, of some sort, declaring that the locomotive would never work because the human body could not withstand speeds over 35 miles per hour?
Yes, but you ignore the fact their claims were easily falsifiable, as people had already exceeded those speeds, and even if they hadn't, the claim could have been proven false by a simple experiment.
The claims made by paranormal supporters do not stand up to similar experimental scrutiny. But, if you really want to believe, don't worry; facts don't have that much to do with it.
dolphman: as with many claims, I could believe the obvious. As the words you give don't give the search result you say they do, the obvious could be you used another search engine. Or something different. It's enough for you, but that's the point. It's fine if it's enough for you. It's not enough for me as I use an evidentary paradigm and your experience doesn't count as evidence. As a former sceptic, I hope you understand that's nothing personal, just like me believing that it's rather unlikely the fridge in this girl's house stopped working 'cause her grandad died is nothing personal against her.
Also, the 'asking for the truth' thing means the person giving you this information has an implicit belief that their belief path is the truth. Yeah, heard it before.
And finally, all you say could be the result of a hoax. I emphasise 'could'; I doubt you are lying in the normal sense of the word, if you are lying. Remember a whole Spiritualist Church was founded by fraudulent teenage girls. We have two regular board members who believe they are Jesus or that they talk to god. None of this means you are lying; but what would YOU say if someone told you this on the Internet?
Enishi: believe what you like! That's the beauty of it. I don't see why you should assume they lie. They can prove the experiments they have carried out on paranormal claiments have scientific validity and that none of the claims have been proved. What have the other lot proved? That they can't get by a controlled experiment?
Look at how big bad cynical science actually found out how acupunture worked. Nothing to do with Red Emperor's Gates or chi. You can get the same results with mild electrical stimulation of certain points. Now we know how it works, maybe it will become an evenb greater benefit to man. What would you rather do? Scrape willow bark and make an infusion or take an Asprin?
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Xena
xena:
Because they are the ones that don't believe it, therefore the burden of proof or lack thereof is up to them.
That attitude is fine if you're willing to believe without proof, which you obviously are. See my comment about paradigms. In 'the real world' it's commonly accepted the proof of the assertation lies with the asserter, and that those who don't want to prove something have something to hide.
Put it this way, if we were discussing investment of money rather than paranormal, everyone would agree that someone investing their money without proof of the wild claims (as in not everyday) was a credulous fool. Change the subject from 'money' to paranormal and people who scoff at the unproved claims are suddenly 'unreasonable'.
Abaddon I don't see anyone on this particular thread asking anyone to invest anything...not money, not time...all I see is people sharing their own personal experiences. If someone was asking for something then I would agree with you about requiring proof personally.
This WAS a nice discussion...ah well the moral majority Jehovahs witnesses rabid skepics have shown up...
Yes, again, I believe that's point 7 from my first post. Your rejection of requests for reasonable proof is akin to Dubbies rejection of similar requests. ANd you were the rudest of everyone previous to you, so what's your point again?
I see people coming into this thread asserting that their way is the only way and anyone who doesn't go along with them is basically wrong. Just like the dubs believe they are the only way...the moral majority believe they are the only way....and no there were quite a few rude comments made prior to my entry...turn off the selective reading and go back and re-read.
I don't mind skepics, but I do mind intolerance and ridicule.
But you do it so well! Look, the colour of your daughter's eyes is not something you use to gain money or power or prestige. At the end of the day, most claims of the paranormal have some such motive at their base, even if the person making the claims actually believes them or is unwilling to admit that such claims might have less than pure motivations, consious or otherwise.
As I further stated to rem, the example of my daughters eyes wasn't a good one. And again where in this thread is anyone asking for money, power or prestige? Show me where please. As for intolerance and ridicule I guess bad association does spoil useful habits.
As such, your example is invalid; your claims don't matter to anyone, as the colour of your daughter's eyes is inconsequential to the world. Someone being duped into paying money for contacting their dead auntie is being manipulated and a lot of people think that you should not stand idly by and watch people being screwed, even if they think they're not being screwed and/or think that being screwed is good for them.
See above.
Follow your logic to its limit and one should shut down this board, as who cares if the dubbies get screwed? They must like it if they let it happen!
If the JW's policies didn't hurt anyone then I would say more power to them. I have no problem with my neice believing she will see her dead grandparents in a new system. Faith in of itself harms no one. I saw nothing related regarding paranormal expereinces in this thread that was harmful to anyone here, did you?
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Pleasuredome
i thought this might be of interest to some people:
http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0%2C%2C5-2004040384%2C00.html
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rem
Pleasuredome,
Awesome! She should go for the $1 Million Randi challenge and win the money to put herself through medical school. :)
Enjoyed all of your comments, fellow skeptics.
rem -
wednesday
btt
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dolphman
Abadon:
Use GOOGLE and type in "bija". AND ALSO pick the words "Ham" or "tham" or "krim" "klim" "aum" or a slew of others
also check out http://www.sourcetext.com/hupage/Sufi/sufi0.html
http://www.anamiboundpublishing.com/singhalongwithsudar/id13.html
When I utter Hu spontaneously i believe it to be explained by one of the above links...
I tend to also mutter ha he hu, ha he hu...after some research i found this out:
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Sirona
Dolphman,
I believe that this happens to you, although I too am unsure as to its origin. Strangely enough, just a few weeks before I was initiated into the coven, my partner (a true skeptic!) said that I began speaking a strange language in my sleep. I put it down to perhaps me just muttering in my sleep, but it was unusual, him being a skeptic and all, for him to say it sounded like I was speaking another language. It freaked him out a bit. Its never happened when I've been conscious though.
I tend to also mutter ha he hu, ha he hu...
Me too, when someone says something funny. LOL. Sorry, couldn't resist.
Sirona
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Abaddon
Xena:
Abaddon I don't see anyone on this particular thread asking anyone to invest anything...not money, not time...all I see is people sharing their own personal experiences. If someone was asking for something then I would agree with you about requiring proof personally.
I'm glad we agree on that last point.
I do believe (oh no, I believe something!) that paranormal claimants ARE asking for something under any circumstance. Belief. Validation of their experience. Nothing wrong with that. The fact that if belief and/or validation is not given many people get their belief structures in a twist is proof that they ARE asking for something and reacting to not getting it, even if what they want is intangible.
Equally there's nothing wrong with the opposite attitude, of asking questions in response to these experiences, of conjecturing, of challanging ideas validity. To say that that is wrong is to say that one can only agree or say nothing, and we all know what a bad habit was that as it's what we used to do as Dubs.
If the JW's policies didn't hurt anyone then I would say more power to them. I have no problem with my neice believing she will see her dead grandparents in a new system. Faith in of itself harms no one. I saw nothing related regarding paranormal expereinces in this thread that was harmful to anyone here, did you?
Faith in of itself harms no one? I am sure that the people sacrificed to various gods, either directly on an altar (i.e. the Aztec), or indirectly through faith-motivated wars would disagree with you... if they hadn't been killed by faith.
Extreme example? What about the UFO nuts who killed themselves? What about the countless lives being pissed against the wall in obviously futile lives predicated upon some belief? See point 9 in my original post - if someone believed, for example, in the mythos of the Lord of the Rings to an extent it interfered with their lives, I think it could be fairly said to have a damaging effect. If someone can only get the confidence they need through a reading of cards or a reading of a horoscope, if someone is scared having sex will result in death because god cares what you want to do with your genitalia, all these are damaging effects on someone's life due to faith in the paranormal.
But, most believers in the paranormal will believe that their particular set are harmless, even if they represent part of a spectrum of affectation that undeniably causes harm.
Dolphman:
I misexplain myself, perhaps. The example over the search page was an illustration that I hadn't found what you'd said I'd find, but that that could be for more than one reason.
As such, it was fine for you to believe, but for me there's insufficent evidence from what you've provided.
The additonal links you provide refer to;
a/ Sufis. Ain't got nothing to do with Sanskrit, sorry.
b/ various other religious writers, the closest of which to Sanskrit is Guru Nanak (one of the founders of the Seikh faith), but the language used for Seikh scripture is Punjabi, and
c/ Hawaiian hakas, which have precisely naff all to do with Sanskrit.
Even given proof that you can spout Sanskrit correctly and apparently not under concious control doesn't mean you have not done the equivalent of what those girls I refered to did (amazing what a string tied to a toe under bedcovers can do), and 'cheated' in some way. But I don't think you are a fraud in that sense, it's merely one of the possibilities.
People can absorb information from a variety of sources and later have that information re-emerge in some fashion, and be genuinely unaware they ever knew those things beforehand.
You may have had something explained in the context of your therapists' belief structures, and have had a different explanation from another set of therapists. The phenomes you're spouting, are they ALL tracable to Sanskrit, or do you spout random sounds some of which you can find on the Internet?
There's a risk to that; "hafag leksek hewejoh wahes fahojehijes" is a random string of characters I made by hitting the keyboard, then adding vowels enough to make them proper words. Hafag, leksek and wahes all return search results. Does this mean my kundalini is breaking out - I know you have other symtoms, but you know what I'm driving at. Are there any longer polysyliballic words that you spout, or is it allone or two syllablic words (which are easy to find meanings for as I have just demonstrated)?
Of course, it is possible that your case will be the one that 'proves' something about the paranormal. Statistically unlikely doesn't mean impossible.
Take care!