Is there a doctor in the house?

by Puternut 27 Replies latest jw friends

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  Gretchen956

  jeeez louise........... the nude body only became dirty after god told them it was. Before that they didn't think "sex" when they say each other nude. Any psychologist can tell you that the quickest way to make something titilating (dontcha love that word) is to forbid it, cover it up, censor it or ban it. It's worked for years with the puritanical religious and the JWs are no different.

  It IS possible to look at the human body objectively. Here is the thing, we as humans are not attracted to everyone. And even if we do find someone attractive it doesn't mean that we are unethical enough to take advantage of a situation.

  So in my humble opinion, neither the doctor nor you is committing porneia (which is a crock anyway in my opinion) unless you took advantage of the other person by attempting to arouse them or encouraged your own arousal at their expense. Things that are not consensual are immoral. Again, my opinion. You know what they say, opinions are like a$$holes, everyone has one. And hey, obviously I have more than one!!! LOL

  Having said that, I understand that you were trying to trap him in his own reasoning (so to speak), and it is kind of funny when that works.

  Gretchen
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  Scully

  It just goes to show the mentality of a lot of JWs - that the second a male and female are in a room alone together, the only possible result is SEX. Who's the pervert now? LOL
• 

  jgnat

  I recently read an account of life drawing that perfectly captures the mood and the attitude of the artist and the model:

  I takes a certain skill and sense of presence to be a model suitable for life drawing. The very best of them, male or female, quickly establish a strong rapport with those drawing in the room. In fact, a model can change the entire dynamics of a drawing session, and they very often do. At first, we watch them struggling to remove their clothing behind a tippy Japanese screen. We can only see the tops of their heads, with their eyes glued to the clock, usually one minute before the pose begins.

  We, the drawers, ranging in age between twenty and eighty, rearrange our messy little boxes full of charcoal bits and watercolor pans, featherd quill pens or chep ball points, and large pads of white or natural-colored papers. We drawers are ready to take any kind of impression that at the moment suits our fancy. A deadly silence reigns during the sittings. Some models come in looking the worse for wear, perhaps having had an overly active night. They may decide the first pose should be lying comfortably flat. "Ne dormez pas! Don't go to sleep," the more serious drawers shout at them, for sleeping models twitch.

  (Zigzag: A Life on the Move by James Houston)
  http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0788199692/102-9542373-1497736?v=glance#product-details

  Scully, you are right-on. The WTBTS assumes the sexes have no control, when alone together. There must be more than a few frustrated virgins editing the Watchtower.
• 

  TD

  Puternut,

  I think your initial question illustrates the accident form of the logical fallacy dicto simpliciter. Briefly, this is the fallacy of denying the exception. It is often committed by legalists and moralists who try to resolve complex questions by a simple mechanical application of a general rule. For example, there are still ultra-conservative Christians out their that consider the National Geographic to be pornographic. They arrive at this unreasonable conclusion by a mechanical application of their definition of pornea irrespective of the customs of attire in cultures other than their own.

  Similarly, although a mechanical application of the various criterion of pornea, might lead to the conclusion that an ObGyn was committing it, this would be a logical fallacy. Although the CO probably knew this as a "gut-feeling" he apparently did not understand the mechanics of why. ---Hence the simple three word response, "He's a Doctor."

  The CO had probably never studied art, he had most likely not been to college at all, probably had never been to a large art gallery except perhaps on a field trip in grammar school. His only first hand encounters with the unadorned human form in art were almost certainly a few furtive glances at the erotic sort when he was a teenager. As a JW elder he had probably sat on judicial committee meetings where lonely and hen-pecked JW men had identified an initial interest in this type of "art" as the seed of subsequent transgressions. In short, he probably did not have the background to dispassionately judge your question. For him, nudity in art went hand in hand with concupiscence and the two could not be separated .

  Therefore it would have been difficult or impossible for him to see that the rule may have other exceptions as well. Depending on the circumstances of course, I think art is a rather obvious one.

  Tom
• 

  Paradise Found

  Is there an artist in the house?

  Hi PUTERNULT......

  Everything you wrote in your post is fine. ...But Iam an artist and own a gallery in Sweden ( I therefore meet many artists) And from my experience there is an image of Masculinity or Femininity that can ...What am I trying to say?

  Theres no right or wrong as how an artist protrays the humun body. But when you can draw a beautiful humun form, isnt the next challege to create that beautiful form in another way?

  Ie The bogus superficial image of Men and Women as portrayed on the T:V screen has little bearing of reality to the viewer of him or herself. (It may be who we wish to be but it is not us) It therefore makes the man or women of the programme regcognise there so thought imperfections.

  Anyway basically I would like to see some of your beautiful figures also changing bed-pans or working in factories making soap or distributing watchtowers...Only because in my opinion it would another dimension to your art.

  Michael
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  jgnat

  Paradise Found, that is DEEP. I must go and ponder that one for a while...
• 

  Nathan Natas

  I think that if the CO was as thoughtful and articulate as Skully, the question - and it was a reasonable one, I think - would have been laid to rest . No pun intended. (much)
• 

  Rabbit

  Puternut:

  I don't exmamine with my hands my subjects and models between the legs. Because out fear to be disfelowshipped of committing pornea. So, than I am of the hook as far as being an artist is concerned? He looked at me in disbelief and asked me if I was a trouble maker. No of course not, I am just trying to make a point.

  Yeah, that's what you are...a no-good trouble maker !

  I don't think 'puternut' really believes what the Doctor was doing was pornea. I don't think he was trying to insult all the fine nurses, caretakers, moms, dads, EMS personnel or anyone who has to 'touch' someone's privates in order to take care of them.

  I DO think he was trying to show how technically black & white some rules can be written. So which are we supposed to obey...the letter of the Law...or the spirit of it ??

  When an strict organization with absolute power to crush you in they're JaWs have a LAW that is too broad and not clear...they can do a lot of damage within the 'grey area' of interpretation. Remember, the un-written "Grey Book of Un-Official JW Rules" that's the one most of us who have been JW's for a while have all studied a lot.

  Our common sense tells us the difference between care and pornea. But, if the WT says, 'a person commits a sin by touching someone's genitals, that is not their spouse,' there is obviously a LOT of grey area. After all -- you're not supposed to even LOOK upon the nakedness of some people. That is the Law of the Bible and the WT...

  Here's another, I'm a photographer (no degree) so, if I wanted to express my artistry and take pictures of nudes (remember, tits & a$$, but, not titillating ! I like that word, too) is that OK for the Elders...? What if it's my profession...? And respectful...? OR what if it wasn't my profession, I just liked drawing or taking pictures of nudes...? OR just looking, if I didn't have the talent of the artist ?

  Perhaps the Elders would come to understand, if they could just 'study' the art for a while -- privately.

  I understand your point, puternut.
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  wannaexit

  You troublemaker (LOL) Did you have him squirming????
• 

  heathen

  In light of recent WTBTS articles about the public baths that were in jerusalem and rome that the christians were instructed to not bare all in front of the opposite sex . Interesting topic I have always looked at it from the perspective that if there was the possiblity of some indecent behaviour that the right course of action is to eliminate the potential cause . It's really not fair with men becuase we are designed to be attracted to a womans body and can easily be succumbed by feelings of lust that could either lead to the self indulgence of masturbation or to acts of soliciting sex . I would think it a matter of conscience that a professional would be able to exercise self control should temptation arise . I really don't know why men get into the field of gynocology anyway unless they are facinated by womens anatomy . My humble opinion