The (Shunned) Woman at the Well (page 2)

Fisherman

What makes you think she was not an outcast in her community before she met Jesus at the well?

What makes you think she was? Where does it say that in the Bible?

A woman who had five husbands and living with a man who is not her husband would be looked upon by many as "problematic" to say the least.... even in most communities today, let alone a small community in the ancient near east.

She was alone at the well, in the heat of the day.... after the other women had already been there and got their chatting done. People do this in offices today. It's called water cooler chat. Not much has changed.

This historical account proves that God seeks out such people, in spite of their moral bankrupcy. Folks like this woman are in a unique position to experience the height of god's pure love, as seen from far below.

It is a very tender portrait of God's character.

Maybe the RULES say to shun them, but Jesus showed us there would be some reasons to "break" the rules.

I agree DOC. This is totally in line with one of Jesus' teaching about another particular law:

And he said unto them, "The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath" - Jesus

Of course, the concept of God's Grace is far from JW thinking and practice.... thank God.

Sea Breeze

Also, JC saw in her virtues that qualified her for repentance and salvation.

Fisherman,

It is hard to understand how you could conclude this. The point of the account is that this woman didn't have any virtues. She didn't qualify for anything really. She was at the bottom of society and yet, not only did Jesus seek her out, he openly identified himself as the long foretold Messiah for the first to this woman. An unbelievable honor.

"Many first shall be last, and the last first."

It's called grace.

Fisherman

It was God’s law that sinners were to be punished not man’s so when delegated authority punishes sinners God is vicariously punishing sinners and it is a misrepresentation to say that it’s hunky-dory to commit sins and religious authority is wrong for taking action and point to this woman as an example of being mistreated as if sexual immorality is right and any rebuke she may have gotten was wrong. The guilty becomes the victim and sin and depravity is sanctified. Zacheus the despised tax collector is another example of how people can repent and God’s love and mercy and compassion. Don’t use these examples to vilify the condemnation of sin (shun) because any ostracism came vicariously from God and condemn the righteous and victimize the sinner. ( It is so funny watching on the media how people living depraved lives act tike victims when society is outraged. ) The moral of the Samaritan woman’s story is that God understands and sees the heart and forgives and mitigates what a person did in the past and forgives like a father without holding a grudge. It’s not about it’s wrong to shun or punish wrongdoers.

hard to understand how you could conclude this

I try reading. For example she articulated belief in the Messiah to come. That takes faith. Faith is a virtue.—One example of something I read in the Bible.

Fisherman

in spite of their moral bankrupcy.

In this case she wasn’t Mary Magdalene so her moral bankruptcy is defendable because she was married in all her previous relationships with men. Also factor-in that under Jewish law it was not viewed as moral bankruptcy for a man to have concubines and multiple wives so as a concubine ( not saying she was) she didn’t have to be married to the man. Also she was not a Jew and not really bound by Jewish law but Samaritan practices. Before the law of Moses, Moses father married his aunt, Abraham married his sister, Jacob married 2 sisters. A master could have sex with his slaves and captured women —all morally acceptable.

Even Jesus remarked though, 5 husbands! and living with a man now! But I don’t see her as a harlot or bankrupt , she obviously had issues.

menrov

It is hard to reason with someone like Fisherman who is bound by his mental model.

Jews would not talk to Samaritans, call it religious discrimination. Samaritans were seen as ritually impure or unclean.

Still, the woman refers to their ancestor Jacob. This shows she did not distance herself from her religion. Her problem: being Samaritan.

Jesus appreciates her honestly regarding her husbands and current partner. John 4:20 shows that she is aware of the differences of where worship should take place ( mountain vs Jerusalem, home/heart vs kingdom hall).

Verse 21 shows reply from Jesus where he shows that both groups are wrong (can you imagine...the gb of the wt to be wrong....). Jesus makes it clear that honesty is key for god (worship in truth = honesty, in spirit= everywhere, not a physical location).

Jesus already mentioned her honesty. Then the woman says she is looking for the messias as he will tell her everything. A very humble expectation. Much different from the attitude the Jews had.

Verse 39 shows that the Samaritans listened to her and went to meet Jesus. Imagine elders in jw land would listen to a woman let alone a woman who lived with a man unmarried.....

Jesus stayed 2 days.

So, no, the woman was not shunned or seen as outcast by the Samaritans. They believed her words. I guess because they knew she was an honest woman. This would never ever happen in jw land.

Jews just avoided Samaritans in all aspects. Pure religious discrimination. WT policy is that woman like the Samaritan woman should be df'ed and as a result shunned. WT will never believe Jesus would talk to such a woman, only to gb members. WT policy is that anyone outside the org is wordly and of less value.

The Jews shunned this woman like WT would.

menrov

Do you think the gb would even consider to meet and stay 2 days with a non-JW group? As I understand, JWs did not want to attend non-WT memorials in Hamburg.

Sea Breeze

Abraham married his sister

Half sister or more probably his neice.

A master could have sex with his slaves and captured women —all morally acceptable.

If he married them, or cared for them for life as a concubine.

Neither was the case with this Samaritan woman. She was simply living with a man not her husband after 5 failed marriages which put her at the bottom for most any ANE society.... as it would even today in most instances.

I am quite sure that she did not start out in life with the goal to be married five times and then shack up with a man. For whatever reason, this is how she ended up. And, it is to this woman that Jesus first openly revealed who he was. She was lost, in many ways. And, Jesus found her.

No where in the NT bible are people told they must first clean up their life, study a WT publication, answer nearly 100 questions and be active in field service in order to trust Jesus and be saved. Belief is the only requirement.

But, works are important, just not for your salvation. Works are simply outward indications of internal belief. In the bible, works folllow belief not the other way around. JW's and their converts are more comparable to the Pharisees and their folllowers than to Jesus' followers who simply believed him.

I can't stop the tears that flow every time I see this woman liberated by Christ. Because you see, that was me

Me too VH.

Vanderhoven7

Hi Fisherman,

The mere fact that she was alone in the heat of the day suggests that she was not appreciated or accepted by the other women in her community.

I'm sure if the Samaritan woman was appreciated, she would have been with the others in the cool of the morning to fetch water from the well.

Perhaps, like Jehovah's Witnesses, these women felt ostracism was a loving provision to motivate sinners to repent.

Fisherman

Van,

The mere fact that she was alone in the heat of the day suggests that she was not appreciated or accepted by the other women in her community.

It appears she wasn’t banned from being there but she wasn’t brazen, she felt ashamed. Nothing was going to change her reputation —but God drew her to Jesus. How special she must have felt to have that privileged encounter with THE MESSIAH! And how jealous the other women must have felt, giving her courage to forgive herself and feel good about herself. She now had substance to face them. She could look at them without having to look down. Now, she could repent with dignity.

Van, the account doesn’t focus on whether or not she was being mistreated or not appreciated or whether or not any rebuke she was receiving was wrong. “ You spoke well, you’ve had 5 husband.” Even Jesus brought it up to her. And she knew she had a reputation. Don’t blame it on how people felt about her conduct. A respectable woman didn’t go around marrying 5 husbands and living with a guy in that society. The account doesn’t focus on that is was wrong for the society to have feelings about that. Seems to me she was beautiful enough for 5 men to marry her one after another so those men didn’t mind. The account focuses on her feelings.

The (Shunned) Woman at the Well

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