McVeigh vs Death Penalty (page 25)

expatbrit

Danny:

You make a valid point, however my opinion on it is that it is difficult to link war and capital punishment this way. Almost like apples and oranges.

Take a circumstance: one country attacks another. I realise that this is ridiculously simplistic, but er, bear with me.

If I was in the attacked country, I would take up arms to defend it. I would not consider this punishment, but self defense. And any citizens of the attacking country killed would therefore not be the subjects of capital punishment. However, once the threat of the attacking country was rendered harmless, further military action would be unjustified, imo.

I cannot think of any justification for one country to attack another apart from pre-emptive self defense. If my country carried out an unjustified attack, I could not take up arms for my country. "My country, right or wrong" is not a philosophy I subscribe to.

Capital punishment is slightly different, but the same principles apply. It is not self defense, since the criminal is already in custody and rendered harmless. Once this is the case, any further violence carried out upon that person is not self defense, and is therefore not justifiable, imo.

Don't think I've explained that too well, but it's 11pm, so it's the best the tired brain can do. Do you get where I'm coming from?

Expatbrit

bigboi

hey Amazing:

I like your point about Timothy McVeigh not becoming a matyr. I think he is being forgotten by the country at large. However I think some people are indeed looking at this man as a matyr and it's those who still support anti-government militia groups that we have to look out for. I think this country is a long way from having a real all out revolution take place inside its borders. However it doesn't take much in the way of manpower and munitions to inflict terrible suffering nowadays. Look at all the death and destruction a few men were able to cause in virtually seconds up there in Oklahoma. Now what if we put more dangerous weapons in the mix, imagine what some nutcase with a gripe against the government can do. So the mainstream may forget about Timothy McVeigh, but I'm sure there are those that will continue to look to him as a matyr.

ONE....

bigboi

"it ain't what ya do. it's how you do it" quote from the song "True Honeybunz" by Bahamadia

DannyBear

Expat,

Yes I do. Thanks for the response.

If you take the sworn oath administered to most soldier's worldwide, discretion or choice, is pretty well a non option.

Most of all war's (hot spots) of late, have no clear or defined defense or offensive objective. The issues are muddied with ethinic, social, and commercial interests. If you are ordered to take action, fire, bomb, gas, or engage in hand to hand combat, you are obligated to do so, by sworn oath. Disobeying those order's is an option, but if one is predisposed, against killing, would it not be better to just admit that, and classify oneself as a pacifist?

I to feel strongly when it comes to defending what is mine, life, limb, family....but I can't get around this, very real dilema, fight for your country, you are in fact then in a unique position, you as the soldier raising rifle to shoulder....then become sole judge, jury, and executioner. No appeals, no stays, no mercy..

Are all those who profess disdain for a very civil, community endorsed captial punishment, going to take the inevitable stand, against all forms of capital punishment, including military service?

Danny

crossroads

DannyBear-I would never fight for my country, thats like
dying for the watchtower or pope or whatever other silly
things man fights over. I sure the hell ain't going to risk
my life so you can buy cheaper gas, go out and get a
freakin' bike. I don't care if you have two VCR'S and a DVD
player and a and a and a and a I'm not dying for it and I'm
not killing somebody so you can have it or keep it.

Tip O' Neal once said all politics is local. Being thats the
case the greatest President in my lifetime was????????
NIXON, you know why? Because a year before I was to be
drafted he stopped the draft. My brother did two tours over
there and I my friend was not going to go over and shoot people that were doing my FAMILY no harm. A president a
senate or a congress has no right to tell me to go kill my
fellow man.The only reason to fight and or die for is to
protect your FAMILY.

bitter mango

timothy mcveigh is already dead and gone but my opinion still stands strong.

if a child hits someone at school, would you teach that child that violence is wrong by beating him so he know how it feels?

most people would prolly say no. so why is it ok to punish murder by killing the killer?? also, i think the death penalty is an "easy way out" for killers. why let them leave this world when they should rot in jail for the rest of their lives. i think being locked away my whole life would be far harsher than dying. maybe this is beacuse i do not fear death. maybe it is because i am closterphobic. regardless, i honestly believe a life sentence in a small barred cage is far worse than being painlessly killed!

p.s. i must admit that at one point in my life i thought all killers should be killed the exact same way their victims were murdered.

DannyBear

Crossroads,

Now that was a straight answer. You are a pacifist. There is nothing wrong with been labeled as such. It is your individual choice.

You brought to the surface, what I was trying to get across. I have heard comments from many, who oppose the administration of captial punishment, who then contradict themselves and say they would in fact fight for their country. By so saying, they have opened a whole new pandora's box, of issue's relating to murder. That was in fact my point.

The only comment I can make about your adamant stand is this:

I don't know where you live, but someone, somewhere, sometime put their life on the line, for whatever freedoms you now enjoy. Even if it is only a local sheriff, or law enforcement officer, when you decide to call on them for assistance, in a life threatening attack by a fellow human...you better be damn sure, that that officer does not hold to your belief.

Always easy to take the high ground, until you find yourself staring at the bottomless pit.

I don't care if you own a vcr, or not, you have a home, you enjoy certain freedoms, so do your children...someone paid for those...jw's are perfect examples of those, who decide they will take advantage of everything their government offer's, but have no compunction, to pay the ultimate sacrifice, 'let someone else do it'...don't want to get my hands dirty.'

Danny

crossroads

DannyBear--yes i'm a pacifist--According to Emy I also am
racist--were she came up with that I have no clue.
I don't have much time so just a point that came right
off the bat. A sheriff was elected, he ran for office he
wanted it. My freedoms I don't take for granted, either
may I add did McVeigh---Freedom is what the man died
for it really is that simple.Now I would have not did what he
did, but should I thank and applaud him for standing up
for the second amandment--it is after all one of my so
called freedoms,that personally should be over turned.
Their is freedom and then their is FREEDOM as
Ritchie Havens sings---FREEDOM-FREEDOM-FREEDOM
Peace and Love--Mark

bigboi

Crossroads:

I don't think Timothy McVeigh died for freedom. He was already a free man who misused and abused the power he had over others. the guy's beef was with the government. Yet, like a coward he went after defenseless fellow citizens including little children. The framers of the Declaration of Independence said the all men have inalienable god-giveen rights, namely the pursuit of life, liberty, and happiness. Timothy McVeigh took all those rights away from his innocent victims and their families. I think it's only just that he himself was deprived of those rights as well.

ONE....

bigboi

"it ain't what ya do. it's how you do it" quote from the song "True Honeybunz" by Bahamadia

crossroads

Bigbio--I don't think you have a clue.Tell me please of
what power did McVeigh have over anybody? He was
not a coward, misguided but not a coward. His beef was
with the government, wasn't that who Washington and
Jefferson had a beef with? Was there innocent children
killed then? Truman in just two swift acts killed more
innocent childern than anybody I know of, now their's a
coward, didn't even have the balls to fly the plane.

McVeigh saw Waco and Rudy Ridge and was sick and
angry about it. But the final straw was Clinton signing
the assualt rifle ban. Personally I think all guns should be banned hey i'm a pacifist. But McVeigh was alerting
the country that a right he believed in and was given us
was being taken away and sure as shit it will happen.
Within 20 to 25 years guns in this country will be banned.
At that time 25 to 30 percent of the people will regard him
as a freedom fighter and he will ascend to hero status
among them. THIS WILL HAPPEN

Just to remind you Jefferson wrote the 2nd amendment
so that the government would FEAR the people. The people
should have enough power to over throw their government.
With that in mind every tax paying citizen of the U.S. should
have their own Stealth Bomber in their drive way.

Last thing, finally here in PHX they have convicted a mother
of negligent homicide because her 10 month old daughter
drowned in her CARE. (Child drownings here are of epidemic
proportions in PHX).Mothers statement after verdict "I'm MAD
because they don't do anything to all of the other people
(whose children have drowned) I was thinking I would
be found 100 percent not guilty" Tell me wasn't her
daughter an innocent child, Will her loving mother get
the death penalty--25 years to life--10 to 15 oh no
she'll get probation to a three year prison term. Any
parent who leaves their small child alone around water
are just as guilty as McVeigh hell even more they are
the INNOCENT childs parents for gods sake.
Oh I love it "TRUTH, JUSTICE and the AMERICAN WAY
Peace out---Mark

McVeigh vs Death Penalty

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