The 70 years of desolation is clearly stated
That is what I conclude when I read. Even if I wasn’t a JW ( which I am 100 percent ) I would believe that without doubt as I read the texts
How to debunk the 1914 calculus ONLY using JW publications?
by psyco 208 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Fisherman
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Jeffro
Fisherman:
That is what I conclude when I read. Even if I wasn’t a JW ( which I am 100 percent ) I would believe that without doubt as I read the texts
So, when it says, ““‘But when 70 years have been fulfilled, I will call to account the king of Babylon and that nation for their error,’” your most reasonable interpretation ‘even if you weren’t a JW’ would be that 70 years ends two years after Babylon’s king is called to account. 🤦♂️ What a farce.
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MeanMrMustard
That is what I conclude when I read. Even if I wasn’t a JW ( which I am 100 percent ) I would believe that without doubt as I read the texts
Then you aren't reading the verses grammatically. The first step in exegesis is to let the verse speak for itself. Don't impose bias on it. Read it assuming the writer knew what he was doing by choosing the words and grammar that he chose.
"This whole country will become a desolate wasteland, and these nations will serve the king of Babylon seventy years."
This is a compound sentence. If you read this as 'this country will become a desolate wasteland for 70 years and these nations will serve the king of Babylon 70 years', then you are reading meaning into the verse beyond its grammar.
This is basically two sentences - which is why some Bibles just render it as two sentences.
The 70 years attaches to 'servitude' of the 'nations' to Babylon. It cannot attach to desolation. If you make the argument that it really does say that but the English here hides the meaning, then you literally have every translator ever, including NWT forking up the translation here. You might as well just give up on ever understanding anything in the Bible.
Starting in v17 there is an enumeration of nations. Verse 29 doesn't give an order of conquering unless you choose a version that plays fast and loose with paraphrasing.
Verse 12 DOES give you an order of events at the end of the 70 years, which undercuts 537 as the end of the 70 years.
Sorry, you are out of luck here. You are reading into the verse. -
scholar
Jeffro
o, when it says, ““‘But when 70 years have been fulfilled, I will call to account the king of Babylon and that nation for their error,’” your most reasonable interpretation ‘even if you weren’t a JW’ would be that 70 years ends two years after Babylon’s king is called to account. 🤦♂️ What a farce.
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Yes, what a farce indeed. The judgement against Babylon could only have begun after the 70-year years had been fulfilled and not before. Thus, the only event that fulfilled the 70 years was the Return of the Jews which occurred after the Fall of Babylon as , a plain reading of the text says. which is the most reasonable interpretation.
scholar JW
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scholar
MeanMrMustard
Then you aren't reading the verses grammatically. The first step in exegesis is to let the verse speak for itself. Don't impose bias on it. Read it assuming the writer knew what he was doing by choosing the words and grammar that he chose.
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The said scholar is big on grammar and he has read the verses grammatically in line with sound exegesis.
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This is a compound sentence. If you read this as 'this country will become a desolate wasteland for 70 years and these nations will serve the king of Babylon 70 years', then you are reading meaning into the verse beyond its grammar.
This is basically two sentences - which is why some Bibles just render it as two sentences.--
OK. No problem for the 70 years defines the time element which was a period of 70 years that covered the elements of Judah as a desolate place in servitude to Babylon along with the other nations. Very simple prophecy!!
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Starting in v17 there is an enumeration of nations. Verse 29 doesn't give an order of conquering unless you choose a version that plays fast and loose with paraphrasing.
Verse 12 DOES give you an order of events at the end of the 70 years, which undercuts 537 as the end of the 70 years.--
After vs. 11 the account presents a list of those nations that would receive judgement from Jehovah commencing first with the nation of Judah.
scholar JW
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Jeffro
Wow 🤦♂️
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scholar
Jeffro
The said scholar loves to Wow!!!
scholar JW
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Disillusioned JW
MeanMrMustard, to me the grammar of the sentence of "This whole country will become a desolate wasteland, and these nations will serve the king of Babylon seventy years" allows for the interpretation that Jerusalem (and the kingdom of Judah) will serve the king of Babylon seventy years. To me it is clear that the verse is saying Judah and the listed gentile nations will serve the king of Babylon for 70 years (even if the desolation of Jerusalem was not proclaimed to last for 70 years).
MeanMrMustard, scholar, Jeffro, and others please note the following.
A number of Christian commentaries also have that interpretation. For example consider the Christian commentary by Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown (first published in 1871 - interestingly that is 2 years after the year Russell listened to a sermon by Second Adventist [Advent Christian Church] Jonas Wendell, and 5 years before the year that Russell first met Second Adventist Nelson H. Barbour). I own copy of its Revised Edition of 1961 (my copy was printed in 1967). The commentary can be read online at https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/eng/jfb/jeremiah-25.html . The wording of it for Jeremiah 25:11 from that source says the following.
"11. seventy years— ( :-). [Note: Though the online source says "-- ( :-)" my hardcover printed book of the commentary says "--(Ch. 27;7)."] The exact number of years of Sabbaths in four hundred ninety years, the period from Saul to the Babylonian captivity; righteous retribution for their violation of the Sabbath (Leviticus 26:34; Leviticus 26:35; 2 Chronicles 36:21). The seventy years probably begin from the fourth year of Jehoiakim, when Jerusalem was first captured, and many captives, as well as the treasures of the temple, were carried away; they end with the first year of Cyrus, who, on taking Babylon, issued an edict for the restoration of the Jews (Ezra 1:1). Daniel's seventy prophetic weeks are based on the seventy years of the captivity (compare Daniel 9:2; Daniel 9:24)."
Regarding verse 18 the commentary says the following.
'18. Jerusalem—put first: for "judgment begins at the house of God"; they being most guilty whose religious privileges are greatest ( :-).
kings—Jehoiakim, Jeconiah, and Zedekiah.
as it is this day—The accomplishment of the curse had already begun under Jehoiakim. This clause, however, may have been inserted by Jeremiah at his final revision of his prophecies in Egypt.'
Note that the commentary references Daniel 9:2; Daniel 9:24. The commentary (as posted online at https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/eng/jfb/daniel-9.html ) says the following about Daniel 9:1-2.
"1. first year of Darius—Cyaxares II, in whose name Cyrus, his nephew, son-in-law, and successor, took Babylon, 538 B.C. The date of this chapter is therefore 537 B.C., a year before Cyrus permitted the Jews to return from exile, and sixty-nine years after Daniel had been carried captive at the beginning of the captivity, 606 B.C.
son of Ahasuerus—called Astyages by XENOPHON. Ahasuerus was a name common to many of the kings of Medo-Persia.
made king—The phrase implies that Darius owed the kingdom not to his own prowess, but to that of another, namely, Cyrus.
2. understood by books—rather, "letters," that is, Jeremiah's letter ( :-) to the captives in Babylon; also Jeremiah 25:11; Jeremiah 25:12; compare 2 Chronicles 36:21; Jeremiah 30:18; Jeremiah 31:38. God's promises are the ground on which we should, like Daniel, rest sure hope; not so as to make our prayers needless, but rather to encourage them."
The commentary says the following for Daniel 9:24.
'24. Seventy weeks—namely, of years; literally, "Seventy sevens"; seventy heptads or hebdomads; four hundred ninety years; expressed in a form of "concealed definiteness" [HENGSTENBERG], a usual way with the prophets. The Babylonian captivity is a turning point in the history of the kingdom of God. It terminated the free Old Testament theocracy. Up to that time Israel, though oppressed at times, was; as a rule, free. From the Babylonian captivity the theocracy never recovered its full freedom down to its entire suspension by Rome; and this period of Israel's subjection to the Gentiles is to continue till the millennium ( :-), when Israel shall be restored as head of the New Testament theocracy, which will embrace the whole earth. The free theocracy ceased in the first year of Nebuchadnezzar, and the fourth of Jehoiakim; the year of the world 3338, the point at which the seventy years of the captivity begin. Heretofore Israel had a right, if subjugated by a foreign king, to shake off the yoke (Judges 4:1-5; 2 Kings 18:7) as an unlawful one, at the first opportunity. But the prophets (2 Kings 18:7- :) declared it to be God's will that they should submit to Babylon. Hence every effort of Jehoiakim, Jeconiah, and Zedekiah to rebel was vain. The period of the world times, and of Israel's depression, from the Babylonian captivity to the millennium, though abounding more in afflictions (for example, the two destructions of Jerusalem, Antiochus' persecution, and those which Christians suffered), contains all that was good in the preceding ones, summed up in Christ, but in a way visible only to the eye of faith. Since He came as a servant, He chose for His appearing the period darkest of all as to His people's temporal state. Always fresh persecutors have been rising, whose end is destruction, and so it shall be with the last enemy, Antichrist. As the Davidic epoch is the point of the covenant-people's highest glory, so the captivity is that of their lowest humiliation. Accordingly, the people's sufferings are reflected in the picture of the suffering Messiah. He is no longer represented as the theocratic King, the Antitype of David, but as the Servant of God and Son of man; at the same time the cross being the way to glory (compare Daniel 9:1-27; Daniel 2:34; Daniel 2:35; Daniel 2:44; Daniel 12:7). In the second and seventh chapters, Christ's first coming is not noticed, for Daniel's object was to prophesy to his nation as to the whole period from the destruction to the re-establishment of Israel; but this ninth chapter minutely predicts Christ's first coming, and its effects on the covenant people. The seventy weeks date thirteen years before the rebuilding of Jerusalem; for then the re-establishment of the theocracy began, namely, at the return of Ezra to Jerusalem, 457 B.C. So Jeremiah's seventy years of the captivity begin 606 B.C., eighteen years before the destruction of Jerusalem, for then Judah ceased to exist as an independent theocracy, having fallen under the sway of Babylon. Two periods are marked in Ezra: (1) The return from the captivity under Jeshua and Zerubbabel, and rebuilding of the temple, which was the first anxiety of the theocratic nation. (2) The return of Ezra (regarded by the Jews as a second Moses) from Persia to Jerusalem, the restoration of the city, the nationality, and the law. Artaxerxes, in the seventh year of his reign, gave him the commission which virtually includes permission to rebuild the city, afterwards confirmed to, and carried out by, Nehemiah in the twentieth year (Ezra 9:9; Ezra 7:11 Ezra 7:11- :, "from the going forth of the commandment to build Jerusalem," proves that the second of the two periods is referred to. The words in Daniel 9:24 are not, "are determined upon the holy city," but "upon thy people and thy holy city"; thus the restoration of the religious national polity and the law (the inner work fulfilled by Ezra the priest), and the rebuilding of the houses and walls (the outer work of Nehemiah, the governor), are both included in Daniel 9:25, "restore and build Jerusalem." "Jerusalem" represents both the city, the body, and the congregation, the soul of the state. Compare Psalms 46:1-11; Psalms 48:1-14; Psalms 87:1-7. The starting-point of the seventy weeks dated from eighty-one years after Daniel received the prophecy: the object being not to fix for him definitely the time, but for the Church: the prophecy taught him that the Messianic redemption, which he thought near, was separated from him by at least a half millennium. ....'
Notice that the commentary uses the date of 606 B.C. [I have also seen other commentaries use that date] - the same date that Barbour used and that initially Russell used (before changing it to 607 B.C.), but that the commentary uses it as the year of the beginning of the servitude (of Jerusalem and Judah, and its kings, and some others, including Daniel) instead of as the year of the beginning of the desolation of Jerusalem. This might give the WT a way out regarding 1914 which would allow them to accept that Jerusalem was destroyed in 587 BCE (or 588 BCE or 586 BCE), for it would allow them to keep the 1914 date (or adjust it slightly, such as to 1915 [a date which in some editions of Studies of Studies in the Scriptures Russell said was a possibility] or to 1913) and also keep the 607 BCE date (or return to their earlier 606 BCE date), but redefine what the 607 (or 606) BCE date refers to.
In some of my prior posts (which I made before reading the above quoted sections of the above commentary) I wrote of my interpretation of the beginning of the servitude (instead of the desolation) of the kingdom headquartered in Jerusalem as possibly the start of the 70 years, according to Jeremiah chapter 25. That also makes sense as the beginning of the Gentile Times and the beginning of the trampling of the nations upon Judah and Jerusalem.
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Disillusioned JW
Note: My prior post includes smiley faces, but I did not intend for that to be in the post. It is in the post because this website interpreted some characters from the online source of the commentary as such.
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scholar
Disillusioned JW
Thank you for your posting from different Bible Commentaries which not only contain observations that support WT Chronology but also contain observations that test our interpretation and our scheme of Chronology.
Whilst living in Sydney, Australia I had ready access to the largest theological college library in Australia. Moore Theological College Library which was across the road from the University of Sydney. When I was researching a particular verse such as Jer. 25:11-12; Dan 1;1 and all of the other texts pertaining to the 70 years, I would go to the section where all the commentaries are arranged per book and take each one off the shelf, take it to the adjoining desks, make notes and if suitable have the pages photocopied. That was my practice over a number of years whilst doing research on Chronology. Thus, I place a high value on all Bible Commentaries. My favourite ones are the ICC, ABD, WBC and Hermeneia series which are classified as Technical Bible commentaries.
Scholar's research methodology on Chronology is the following:
1. Bible and all other relevant translations
2. WT publications from the recent to the oldest
3. Bible Commentaries- Jewish, Catholic, Protestant, Evangelical and Reformed
4. Chronology text books such as Finegan and Thiele and others
5. Theses, Monographs, Dissertations
6. Academic journals such JTS, JBL, Vetus Testamentum and Novum Testamentum and others
7. OT History reference works or textbooks
scholar JW