by psyco 208 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
Scholar
The 70 years could not have begun in 609 BCE with the Fall of Assyria as the prophecy by Jeremiah was not given at that time but later with Neb's first year and Jehoiakim's 4th year- Jer. 25:1.
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Yes it began with the fall of Assyria. In 605 BCE (1st year of Neb) the 70 years were already underway.
Maybe you can enlighten us and tell us who "these nations" refer to in Jeremiah 25:11?
Alethia
Yes it began with the fall of Assyria. In 605 BCE (1st year of Neb) the 70 years were already underway.
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How can something be underway when it has not even begun? The first statement about the 70 years was made by Jeremiah and it is not in the past or present but in the future. Refer Jer. 1:1,11.
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Maybe you can enlighten us and tell us who "these nations" refer to in Jeremiah 25:11?
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Certainly. The nations are listed with their kings beginning with Judah right through to kin Sheshach. Refer Jer. 25:18-26
scholar JW
What nonsense. Are you saying that the word exile ' does not occur in the Bible, particularly in the OT?
Jeeeeezus. That's incredibly disingenuous. Strawman of all strawmen.
And if the 70 years were not connected to an exile then what was it connected to?
You most definitely know what it's connected to. The nations will serve the king of Babylon for 70 years.
Jehovah used Babylon to punish Judah by means of an exile for a period of 70 years and you cannot rewrite history.
He used Babylon to punish Judah, first as a vassal state, and then in exile. However, the time period is tied to the supremacy of Babylon by the clear grammar of Jerimiah 25.
Absolutely. Plain reading of the text and understanding the text by means of exegesis.
Exegesis is not a process that's divorced of grammar. The first principle of proper exegesis is respecting the grammar of the verse. If you don't respect grammar, then you can make any verse mean anything.
Scholar, the punishment is for israel but their punishment only makes up part of the 70 years. I feel that a lot of the trouble with JWs understanding this account is due to the misleading NWT translation. The Nations who "serve" babylon doesn't start with Jerusalem. For example, see below
Jeremiah 25:17,18
NWT: So I took the cup out of the hand of Jehovah and made all the nations to whom Jehovah sent me drink: 18 starting with Jerusalem and the cities of Judah, her kings and her princes, to make them a ruin, an object of horror, something to whistle at and a curse, as it is today
ESV: So I took the cup from the LORD’s hand, and made all the nations to whom the LORD sent me drink it: 18 Jerusalem and the cities of Judah, its kings and officials, to make them a desolation and a waste, a hissing and a curse, as at this day
Jeremiah 25:29
NWT: For look! if I am bringing calamity first on the city that bears my name, should you go unpunished?
ESV: For behold, I begin to work disaster at the city that is called by my name, and shall you go unpunished? You shall not go unpunished, for I am summoning a sword against all the inhabitants of the earth, declares the LORD of hosts.’
As you can see above NWT adds starting and first to give the reader the impression that the 70 years begins with Jerusalem. Very sneaky
What Alethia said ,when I started to be a JW they encouraged us to get copies of different Bibles for comparing ,I still have some ,and the emphatic Diaglott.
I wonder if thats the case these days ,perhaps that's the problem that Scholar has not using other translations ,and therefore he always comes up with the same thinking on things.
Alethia and others, the NWT is not alone is saying "first" or "starting" (or an expression with a similar meaning) in Jeremiah 25:29. For example, Jeremiah 25:29 (Revised English Bible) says "I shall first punish the city which bears my name; do you think that you can be exempt? No, you will not be exempt, for I am summoning a sword against all the inhabitants of the earth. This is the word of the LORD of Hosts."The Revised English Bible (REB) is a revision of the New English Bible (NEB). The rendering of the NEW Bible is one which the WT (including Fred Franz?) a number of times liked in a number of Bible verses and it might have influenced the WT interpretation of some verses (or reassured them of their interpretation [for example, the WT used the 1970 NEB wording of the latter part of John 1:1 to support the NWT wording of "a god"]).
Regarding the meaning of "all the inhabitants" the commentary in the Oxford Study Bible: Revised English Bible with the Apocrypha says the following. "City which bears my name: Jerusalem. All the inhabitants of the earth is an apocalyptic phrase; see following note. 30-38: This whole passage has the flavor of the flavor of apocalypse, the prediction of a violent intervention of God into human history for judgment." I think the commentary is implying that some of the prophecy did not come true literally, by saying "All the inhabitants of the earth is an apocalyptic phrase", and is thus trying to downplay taking seriously that part of the prophecy.
Jeremiah 25:29 (New Revised Standard Version) says "See, I am beginning to bring disaster on the city that is called by my name, and how can you possibly avoid punishment? You shall not go unpunished, for I am summoning sword against all of the inhabitants of the earth, says the LORD of hosts." Even the ESV (which Alethia quoted) says "begin". Even the 1995 NASB (a very literal translation) at Jeremiah 25:29 says "... I am beginning to work calamity in this city ...". The Byington translation at Jeremiah 25:29 says "... I am beginning with the city ...". Likewise even the Revised Version (RV) Bible of 1885 at Jeremiah 25:29 says "... I begin to work evil at the city ...".
Jeremiah 25:29 provides context to interpreting Jeremiah 25:18 as to which city or nation the book of Jeremiah says will receive judgment first, and thus it supports the NWT (2013) saying "starting" at Jeremiah 25:18, and thus I must admit it strongly supports the claims and exegesis of the Bible by scholar (from a biblical text perspective if not a secular perspective) in this aspect. It should be noted however that the NWT of 1984 (a more literal translation than the NWT of 2013) does not say "starting' at Jeremiah 25:18 though it does say "starting off" at Jeremiah 25:29.
The Abingdon Bible Commentary (1929) [which is one of the main non-WT commentaries which I use because it impresses me greatly] on page 694 says regarding Jeremiah chapter 25 "... Jehovah is about to bring all the families of the North (v. 9, cf. 1:14) against Jerusalem first, but also against all of the nations around it."
I remember that when I was an active JW the WT published more than once the idea that the Bible reveals that Jehovah brings his judgements and punishments first upon his own guilty people and then to guilty gentile people. Likewise the Bible says (if I recall correctly) that Jehovah cleanses his holy sanctuary first and then cleanses other areas.
The commentary edited by Dummelow called A Commentary on The Holy Bible (1909), on page 470 in regards to Jeremiah chapter 25 says the following. "The prophet advises submission to Babylon as God's agent, but promises its overthrow at the end of the seventy years' captivity which impends. He announces the judgement that shall descend on the nations.' However, in regards to verse 11 and the expression of "seventy years" the same commentary book says the following. "The Jewish love of round numbers would lead them to consider the number seventy used in such a connexion [sic.] as standing for any approximation to that amount. The captivity seems to have been, in fact, for somewhat less than seventy years."
Alethia
Scholar, the punishment is for israel but their punishment only makes up part of the 70 years. I feel that a lot of the trouble with JWs understanding this account is due to the misleading NWT translation. The Nations who "serve" babylon doesn't start with Jerusalem. For example, see below
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Nonsense. The simple fact of the matter is that Jer.25:11 refers to the 70 years of servitude to Judah and the nations for all are brought into servitude to Babylon. The next pericope beginning from vs.17 through to vs 26 gives a description of the nations who would receive Jehovah's judgement beginning first with Judah including Jerusalem, its cities, kings and princes.
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As you can see above NWT adds starting and first to give the reader the impression that the 70 years begins with Jerusalem. Very sneaky
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Again nonsense. Jeremiah makes it quite explicit in ch.25 that Jehovah's judgement of the nations began first with Judah and lasted for a period of 70 years. The NWT reads similarly to other translations.
scholar JW
Mean MrMustard
Jeeeeezus. That's incredibly disingenuous. Strawman of all strawmen.
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Not at all for one only has to understand the meaning and significance of 'exile'.
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You most definitely know what it's connected to. The nations will serve the king of Babylon for 70 years.
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Indeed the 70 years was connected to the Judah and the nation's servitude to Babylon.
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He used Babylon to punish Judah, first as a vassal state, and then in exile. However, the time period is tied to the supremacy of Babylon by the clear grammar of Jerimiah 25.
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The clear grammar shows that both Judah and the nations served Babylon for 70 years whilst Judah was in exile to Babylon.
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Exegesis is not a process that's divorced of grammar. The first principle of proper exegesis is respecting the grammar of the verse. If you don't respect grammar, then you can make any verse mean anything.
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The said scholar knows all about exegesis and grammar!!
scholar JW
By constructing a scheme of Chronology based on the backward computation of the reigns of the N B Period you get 586/587 for the Fall of Jerusalem based on material in the Insight volumes. I get that!
The Insight volumes omit nothing and are correct in being faithful to the Bible.
Scholar can be quite wordy but if you skim over the barrage of condescending insults, dig through the layers of wishful thinking and look for the simple truths, they are in there somewhere.
Again nonsense. Jeremiah makes it quite explicit in ch.25 that Jehovah's judgement of the nations began first with Judah and lasted for a period of 70 years. The NWT reads similarly to other translations.
No. The order Jerimiah lists the nations doesn't imply a conquering order. It's just an enumeration of the nations "round about" that will serve the king of Babylon.
If that list described a conquering order, starting in verse 17, it means you have Judah conquered before Assyria. How is this supposed to have transpired? Do the armies of Babylon pour out, passing through Asssyria, Persia, without conflict, only to arrive at the nations surrounding Judah, ignoring them as well, but allowed to pass through without resistance? What did Neb say to these nations? "Nevermind the massive army I'm moving through your lands. Just passing through. I'm really after this small state on the coast. But I might attack on my way back"?
Good lord. This is utter craziness. The list of nations is just a list of nations. Verse 29 is translated as "beginning to", not "first".
