by True North 17 Replies latest jw friends
Must be like a good Nazi huh?
As garrybuss has said this is how I feel.Most if not all of the elders would throw you into the gas chambers if they were ordered to.They after all are obeying a "higher power" and they don't have to think of the end results of their actions.
To not think is a way of life for all dubs.They would make good NAZIS!!!!
I know several elders or ex-elders that have regreted actions they've taken, some of them said they would never do such a thing again. Typically this involved something like acting on an alternative service issue or a hasty action, and sometimes it was dealing with someone that was just nuts. Frankly most elders are rarely called on to deal with things like apostasy, in several decades in the congregations I'm familiar with I know of exactly two cases so that's probably not an issue that most elders face. Also, in my experience most elders leave people alone and make no effort to track them down when they decide to leave. I know a lot of people here will disagree with my comments but that's my experience. Most elders are not evil or Nazis or any of that other rubbish, they just try to do the best they can within the limits of their understanding. And I said most, not all.
Must be like a good Nazi huh?As garrybuss has said this is how I feel.Most if not all of the elders would throw you into the gas chambers if they were ordered to.They after all are obeying a "higher power" and they don't have to think of the end results of their actions.To not think is a way of life for all dubs.They would make good NAZIS!!!!
Some elders did try to mitigate the madness of things by looking for the interests of the flock - yes many were mad bad and potentially equatable with Nazi's but not all were (or are) - some did work hard for the brothers, did not impose loads etc, did not rush to judicial action - of course over time such ones get emotionally exhausted by this and give up or leave as the pressure from the majority / COs etc to plough the party line becomes too much to resist - please dont equal all elders/former elders with Nazi types - Nazism was more than popular in Germany in the '30s (overwhelming support from the people) and in some congs I have seen overwhelming support from the brothers for the hard liners - that does not however make all the same - the organisation is corrupt and unsaveable - some still in are decent ( although the ones who are not do have the ascendancy)
I can think of lots of "advice" (orders) from COs etc that elders ignored for the benefit of brothers - lots of JC cases in which elders moved the goal posts to find repentance abnd not have to take action.
My thoughts go out to those still trying against the tide, to show common sense and good judgement.
If anyone knows a good elder in Sioux Falls, South Dakota, hurry up and post their name. The world is waiting.
Here's my take as an ex-elder:
I considered myself a caring, thoughtful, concientous, courteous, go-out-of-my-way to help you, kind, and just elder.
BUT: And it's a big but: (I couldn't resist) Everything I did as an elder, how I thought about others, how I looked at problems/sins that came to my attention, how I decided judicial cases, how EVERYTHING was done, was in the context of my "training" as an elder and a witness.
Part of that training involved learning how to look at EVERYTHING they way I was taught, and to submerge my personal feelings about how things should be done. Isn't this also the very same way we as Witnesses learned everything? Elders were/are no different in this respect from non-elder Witnesses, we just put our own feelings aside on many, many more matters. I can recall that the few times I spoke up about things that "didn't look right" to me personally, I was slapped down HARD, and actually convinced myself that my own personal view of things was wrong, I was being too this, or too that if you will. The "system" as I knew it did not encourage such independent thinking very often.
Here's an example of what went on (I'm trying to show how trying to do something different than the "letter" of the law gets slapped down): In our congregation we had a situation where a long-time elder became a widower, and then about 6 months later he had a one-time sexual fling with a woman he had been engaged to before he became a witness (I mention this detail to provide a complete picture)......Well, we on the Judicial Committee felt that as he was totally remoreseful over the incident (alcohol was involved), and we were convinced he was repentant and determined not to repeat the sin, we "reproved" him privately. He wouldn't be an elder any longer, and the congregation would learn of that, but that was as far as we thought it should go. We took into account his long years of faithful service, too as a factor. He was basically a "good" man, who just ran off the rails.....Anyway, when the Circuit Overseer came through YOU WOULDN'T BELIEVE his take on the thing: He belittled us, and said we should have reproved him PUBLICLY, to humiliate him and let everyone know that something untoward had occured...sort of a "knock him down a peg" concept.. He made us feel like we had captured Hitler and let him off with a $10 fine. I couldn't begin to understand where this idiot (the CO) was coming from....This was one of the very few times in my 26 yrs plus as an elder that I really got into it with a CO.....where was the mercy, I asked? What about this man's years of faithful service?? Sure, he screwed up (pardon the pun), but what about forgiveness and repentance?? The CO felt that we should have kept him to a higher standard.
How do I personally feel NOW about stuff I did as an elder?? I deeply regret being involved in decisions in some situations, as I look back on it with the hindsight of "opened eyes". But I sure as shootin' didn't see it that way THEN. The most important thing to me at the time, and I think other ex-elders feel the very same way, is "what is the correct view of this situation, in keeping with ALL that we have been taught as elders (including mercy, forgiveness, and kindness) but in keeping with all that has been published about the particular thing".
It has become fashionable around here for some of us to forget that elders (including Circuit Overseers and District Overseers) are all a product of the same rotten system. Yes, it's true that some elders were/are power-hungry jerks, who don't have a shred of common sense, or who are so mentally isolated from "the flock" that they just don't see how unkind and hurtful they are. Yes, some who really get off on "lording over the flock".
But over-all I say it's the system itself that's at fault, mostly. It's the way they've been trained that makes most elders do things exactly the way they think "is right", while submerging any feelings to the contrary.
To be sure, there were/are elders who somehow retained their link to their own, internal, Non-witness affected common sense "unit"....these elders were constantly getting into trouble for using "their heads" instead of the flock book.....they were/are the ones getting called onto the carpet by the "law and order" types who were following the letter of their training.
---Dan
To be sure, there were/are elders who somehow retained their link to their own, internal, Non-witness affected common sense "unit"....these elders were constantly getting into trouble for using "their heads" instead of the flock book.....
Well Dan,
Is this not enough to show that recovery is not possible unless they get out? This is the very point our Lord made about this slave. One cannot stay in the organization and be considered a good elder or a Faithul and wise servant as the theme of this dicussion has brought out so well.
Joseph
Joseph,
We're on the same page, (I think). I'm certainly not "justifying" ANYTHING, just passing along heartfelt observations about how the actions/attitudes of many (perhaps most) elders are overwhelmingly influenced by their "training" and "conditioning", not the result of some internal wickedness. There exceptions, to be sure, as I mentioned.
I feel like a lightweight around here discussing some of this stuff, so if I'm missing your point, please excuse me. I'm always amazed at the depth of many of the posters around here, who express themselves so well, and who always seem to me to be much better, faster, deeper thinkers than me.
---Dan
elders are overwhelmingly influenced by their "training" and "conditioning", not the result of some internal wickedness.
Danny Boy,
I know how you feel because I was once a part of the mess you describe and am very sorry for the damage I did during that time. What I was showing here was that the scriptures do not differentiate between some perceived internal wickedness and the actual crimes committed by such good individuals. The judgment of them is the same unless they repent. And there is no repenting in the Watchtower as this conflict will continue on and on. One must get out in order to do that and they will often spend considerable time and effort at undoing the damage done over the years.
No need to worry about agreeing or disagreeing on this forum. We simply provide varied information and viewpoints and let everyone else decide for themselves how to absorb or apply it. After all our faith as well as our individual ministry is our responsibility and should not be dictated by others.
Joseph
