Israeli army does it again!

by Waymores Ghost 30 Replies latest social current

  • Satanus
    Satanus

    Peace could be attained if israel pulled back to the 1967 borders and allowed a palestinian state. They could build walls on those borders, bring in international peace orgs, bring in us, un, and multinational troops to enforce the peace.

    BUT, some israeli planners have envisioned a 'greater israel' from the euphretes to the red sea, in harmony w the jewish god's supposed promise to the babylonian, abraham, who jews claim as a forefather. With this homeland in mind, peace is the least productive state for israel. Peace would dry up its monetary support from america, and most money support from jews in other countries.

    They also conveniently forget that arabs came from the same source, being covered by the original biblical promise. Arabs are also semites.

    SS

  • avishai
    avishai
    It's obvious that Israel doesn't want the Palestinians to have their own state, either. You might want to take a look in the Old Testament and count the number of times Israel slaughtered hordes of folks and claimed that Jah gave them the victory.

    Why should they? "Palestinians" as we view them do NOT exist. The state of Israel was bought and paid for, ancestral claims aside. The "Palestinians" are displaced jordanians the British settled in Israel right before they pulled out of the country to avoid a Jewish world power and bring about exactly the situation and strife we have today.

    http://palestinefacts.org/pf_faq_palestine.php

    First of all, the Palestinian Arabs do have a state. Its called Jordan. During the League of Nations Mandate period, the land originally set aside by the League of Nations as the Palestine Mandate was supposed to provide for a national home for the Jewish people. The British were given the authority to manage the Mandate and help the Jews make the transition to independence. Instead, almost 80% of the original Mandate land was carved out and arbitrarily made into the Arab country of Trans-Jordan (later renamed Jordan). In all the land of the Mandate east of the Jordan River it was "No Jews Allowed". West of the Jordan, the 20% part of the Mandate, the British restricted Jewish immigration and gradually adopted policies that were more and more pro-Arab. Palestinian Arabs are the majority of the population of Jordan even today.

    All of Israel today, and the Jewish lands historically called Judea and Samaria (now the West Bank) plus Gaza are entirely within the 20% slice of the British Mandate left over after the creation of Transjordan. The British Mandate Overview page gives a table with the details of this geographical distribution of the Mandate lands.

    In all of the history of the region, there never was a Palestinian Arab state. The Palestinian Arabs are not a distinct people. With very few exceptions, they are a highly mixed group of immigrants from all over the Middle East and even further regions: Assyrians, Persians and Romans from ancient times, Turks, Armenians, Greeks, Albanians, and Italians, Afghans, Kurds, other Europeans including Germans, Bosnians, Circassians as well as Egyptians, Bedouins, Algerians, Sudanese and many others who have been identified in the population. Most of today's inhabitants can trace their history in the Palestine area no further than the early 20th century when many came to Palestine attracted by the Zionist prosperity and, after World War I, the political stability of the British administration of the Mandate.

    Palestinian Arabs have been offered the opportunity to create a state many times, starting with plans advanced during the British Mandate which the Arabs rejected. Then the United Nation partition plan of 1947, which brought Israel into existence, included a nation for the Palestinians, but the Arabs rejected it. Over the decades since there has been plan after plan that would bring peace to the region and a state for the Palestinians: all they had to do was let Israel live in peace. Arabs rejected all these plans, up to and including at Camp David in 2000 and Taba in 2001, and kept the armed struggle going.

    It should also be remembered that from 1948 to 1967 the land known as the West Bank, historically Judea and Samaria, part of the Land of Israel, was held by Jordan. During that period the Gaza Strip was held by Egypt. There were no "occupied territories", no "settlements" or any of the other excuses used today to attack Israel. But there was also no peace. Palestinians and the neighboring Arab countries continuously attacked Israel and worked for the destruction of the Israeli state. At the same time, there was no call for Palestinian independence or statehood even though it could have been done by Jordan with the stroke of a pen.

    On November 15, 1988, a Palestinian state was proclaimed by Yasser Arafat at a meeting of the Palestine National Council in Algiers. This was the second declaration of such a state, the first being at a meeting in Gaza in October 1, 1948 during Israel's War of Independence. Both the Gaza and the Algiers declarations are largely irrelevant today, notwithstanding that the Algiers Declaration received enormous attention at the time. Since the PLO did not control the intended Palestinian territory, it was only a symbolic act.

    In all probability there will be an independent Palestinian Arab state some day, but only after the Palestinian Arabs find leadership that is committed to peace with Israel

    As a result of the Six Day War, Israel gained all of Jerusalem, the Golan Heights, Sinai, the Gaza Strip, and the West Bank (historically known as Judea and Samaria). Palestinian Arabs often insist on using the term "occupied territories" to describe these areas, usually connected to the assertion that they fall under the 1949 Fourth Geneva Convention. Yet, Palestinian spokesmen also speak about Israeli military action in Area A as an invasion, an infringement on Palestinian sovereignty. The use of both forms of terminology is a contradiction. If Israel "invaded Palestinian territories" in the present, then they cannot be regarded as "occupied"; however, if the territories are defined as "occupied," Israel cannot be "invading" them.

    Israeli legal experts traditionally resisted efforts to define the West Bank and Gaza Strip as "occupied" or falling under the main international treaties dealing with military occupation. Former Chief Justice of the Supreme Court Meir Shamgar wrote in the 1970s that there is no de jure applicability of the 1949 Fourth Geneva Convention regarding occupied territories to the case of the West Bank and Gaza Strip since the Convention:

      ... is based on the assumption that there had been a sovereign who was ousted and that he had been a legitimate sovereign.

    In fact, prior to 1967, Jordan had occupied the West Bank and Egypt had occupied the Gaza Strip; their presence in those territories was the result of their illegal invasion in 1948. Jordan's 1950 annexation of the West Bank was recognized only by Great Britain and Pakistan and rejected by the vast majority of the international community, including the Arab states.

    International jurists generally draw a distinction between situations of "aggressive conquest" and territorial disputes that arise after a war of self-defense. Former US State Department Legal Advisor Stephen Schwebel, who later headed the International Court of Justice in the Hague, wrote in 1970 regarding Israel's case:

      Where the prior holder of territory had seized that territory unlawfully, the state which subsequently takes that territory in the lawful exercise of self-defense has, against that prior holder, better title.

    Israel only entered the West Bank in 1967 after repeated Jordanian artillery fire and ground movements across the previous armistice lines; additionally, Iraqi forces crossed Jordanian territory and were poised to enter the West Bank. Under such circumstances, even the United Nations rejected Soviet efforts to have Israel branded as the aggressor in the Six-Day War.

    Regardless of how many times the Palestinian Arabs claim otherwise, Israel cannot be characterized as a "foreign occupier" with respect to the West Bank and Gaza Strip. Fundamental sources of international legality decide the question in Israel's favor. The last international legal allocation of territory that includes what is today the West Bank and Gaza Strip occurred with the League of Nations Mandate for Palestine which recognized Jewish national rights in the whole of the Mandated territory, including the sector east of the Jordan River, almost 80% of the original Mandated territory, that was given to Palestinian Arabs and Emir Abdullah to create the country of Trans-Jordan (later renamed Jordan). Moreover, the rights under the Mandate were preserved under the United Nations as well, according to Article 80 of the UN Charter, after the termination of the League of Nations in 1946.

    It is important to observe that, from the time these territories were conquered by Jordan, Syria and Egypt in 1948 to the time they were gained by Israel in 1967, the territories were not refered to as "occupied" by the international community. Furthermore, the people living in those territories before 1967 were not called "Palestinians" as they are today; they were called Jordanians and Egyptians. (In fact, before Israel was founded Jews and Arabs alike who lived in the region were called Palestinians. The newspaper was the "Palestine Bulletin" and later the "Palestine Post" before becoming today's "Jerusalem Post", the Jewish-founded electric company was "Palestine Electric" and so on.) There was no call for "liberation" or "national rights" for the Arabs living there and no Palestinian nation was discussed.

    No UN resolution requires Israel to withdraw unilaterally from the territories, nor do they forbid Israelis from going there to live. In particular, the often-misquoted UN Security Council Resolution 242 (and related Resolution 338) make no such demand or requirement. The demand that Israel stop creating "illegal settlements" is similarly baseless.

    Under the Oslo Accords, the "peace process" started in 1991 at the Madrid Conference, Israel agreed to withdraw from the disputed territories and Yasser Arafat's Palestinian Authority (PA) was given control over land chosen so that more than ninety-nine percent of the Palestinian population lived under the jurisdiction of the PA. But the committment to Israel's security that was the backbone of the Oslo agreements was never honored by the PA and Israel was forced to periodically re-enter the ceded territory to quell terrorism. In 2000, Yasser Arafat rejected sweeping concessions by Israel at Camp David -- promoted by US Pres. Clinton in an attempt to reach a final peace agreement -- and the Palestinian Arabs turned again to violence with the Al Aqsa Intifada. That is, after the PA was governing nearly all Palestinian Arabs and a generous peace offer with international backing was on the table, the only response Israel got was increased violence. This is the sole reason Isreal continues to have a military presence in the disputed territories

  • avishai
    avishai

    What, no rebuttals? C'mon, people!

  • Yerusalyim
    Yerusalyim
    It's obvious that Israel doesn't want the Palestinians to have their own state, either. You might want to take a look in the Old Testament and count the number of times Israel slaughtered hordes of folks and claimed that Jah gave them the victory. Come now, we're talking MODERN history. If you want to harken back to the bible, then you have to acknowledge Israel's claim to the land.

    Israel reminds me of the mouthy little prick in the schoolyard that you always wanted to kick the snot out of, but he always got away with shit because his best friend was the school bully. No, it's more like the little short kid who gets picked on by four or five bullies, and hands their a$$es to them.

    Peace could be attained if israel pulled back to the 1967 borders and allowed a palestinian state. If your really believe that you're much more naive than I thought. Israel was INSIDE the 1967 borders for 20 years of it's existence...the Palestinians were free to form their own state at anytime (oh, wait, no they weren't because their FELLOW ARABS wouldn't allow it....and there was no peace. Why would it be different now?They could build walls on those borders, don't you think it's a shame they have to build the wall anyhow? bring in international peace orgs,oh, that's real secure, they've stopped how many suicide bombers? bring in us, un, yep, if I was Israel (or any other nation but ESPECIALLY) Israel, I'd trust the UN....NOT (Rhawanda, Bosnia, Kosovo, need I go on? and multinational troops to enforce the peace. Whose forces? Where? What authority? Keep all on the Palestinian side.
  • Satanus
    Satanus

    Avashi

    I'm reading over what you posted.

    Yeru

    Israel reminds me of the mouthy little prick in the schoolyard that you always wanted to kick the snot out of, but he always got away with shit because his best friend was the school bully. No, it's more like the little short kid who gets picked on by four or five bullies, and hands their a$$es to them.

    You are part of the 'school bully' who is israel's best friend. What more can a person say?

    SS

  • Yerusalyim
    Yerusalyim

    SS,

    Perhaps you need to read history a bit more. In 1948 Israel kicked butt all by themselves. In 57 it was a joint effort with the French and English...the Israelis taking the brunt. In 67 and 73 Israel were on their own...they got weapons from us...the Arabs got a LOT more weapons from the Soviet Union (or did you forget that little detail?). If anyone has been bullied it's Israel...and they've kicked the bully's butt.

  • Satanus
    Satanus
    In 67 and 73 Israel were on their own...they got weapons from us

    Yup, at times new high tech weapons, hot out of american factories were sent to israel, so that she used the fruit of american invention and labor before american souldiers did. Not only that, the american military was ready to jump in, should israel loose.

  • avishai
    avishai

    SS, when the englishpulled out in '48, they left all their heavy artillery towers in the ARABS hands. Which they used, like crazy.

  • Yerusalyim
    Yerusalyim
    Yup, at times new high tech weapons, hot out of american factories were sent to israel, so that she used the fruit of american invention and labor before american souldiers did. Not only that, the american military was ready to jump in, should israel loose.

    SS,

    Why the double standard? The Arabs, especially Nassir in Egypt, were receiving more than three times the amount of support from the USSR than Israel was from the US...the Israelis were just much better fighters.

  • Richie
    Richie

    I have been reading lately and specifically about Saudi Arabians who claim that they are being unfairly targeted by the Western media, mostly because of the "powerful" Jewish American lobby. The Arabs who are disturbed by this are both right and wrong in their claim.

    Where they are right, is in their belief that much of the negative press they are receiving is being caused somewhat by the "powerful" Jewish American lobby. Where they are wrong, is that they are being unfairly targeted. The negative coverage they receive is more than fair, honest and well founded. In other words; they deserve what they get. And it's not just America's Jews who have their number.

    The fact that the American Jewish community is "powerful", is nothing for America's Jews to be ashamed of. They work hard at being Americans, and get involved at all levels of society for the betterment of their country.

    American Jews are major contributors to political Parties, not to promote Judaism, but rather to make America better for everyone. American Jews are leaders in the Civil Rights Movement as was acknowledged by the late Martin Luther King Junior, and are world leaders and contributors in medicine, the arts, humanities and technologies. Why aren't the Arabs with their gazillions of dollars?
    Through arduous work, investment, entrepreneurship, and risk, America's Jewish population has earned its place within the American melting pot, and its right to be a "powerful" lobby.

    American Jewish leaders and their community do not condemn individuals or groups based upon religion, ethnicity, national origin, gender or political beliefs. Middle Eastern Arabs and Islamists do.
    American Jews do not call for the destruction of Moslem or Arab countries; not even Palestine and Palestinians, like virtually all Middle Eastern Arabs call for the destruction of Israel and death to the Jews.
    American Jews do not believe people of certain nationalities and religions should be banned from entering America. However, most Arab countries will not allow Israelis to visit, or non Israelis with an Israeli stamp in their passport; much less Jews of any national origin. Saudi Arabia is a perfect example of this racism.

    American Jews are proud of the incredible accomplishments of the tiny state of Israel which has excelled in everything we in the West value, in spite of having no natural resources of any value, and at being in a vicious state of war for its entire life. What recent (in the past 1,000 years) accomplishments can the Arabs point to?

    Had this type of "powerful" Jewish lobby existed in the 1930's, there would have been no Holocaust. I am beyond pleased that it exists today. As I see it, the Arabs have several choices. They could clean up their act. Or they can stop complaining at being portrayed as the despots they are.

    Richie :*)

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