by FlyingHighNow 42 Replies latest jw friends
Shotgun, you better not try to borrow my katsuit.
Did you hear her Shotgun???
Simplesally... the original owner of the 'kats' suit....
I know.. I was her partner in crime..
oh yeah.. I still am..
never mind.. minor thread hijack............
Carry on..
Flyinghigh or is it low? (Just kidding) I'm going to take a stab at your question. As much as I am impressed with intelligent women, these same women prefer men to take the lead. (At least the ones I've met) My comments are from experience. My mom was one tough cookie and she held the family together while my Dad was spoiled and a playboy. (Hmmm, why did she marry him?) Because of him being irresponsible, she had him under subjection. OK, that's understandable under the circumstances. There were plenty of times when she would nag him and it was totally needless. I do know she wanted him to take the lead, but he didn't.
I've been in the company of many older women for many years and as I said above, these same women prefer men to take the lead, why? Is it a Biblical thing, A culture thing? How about an innate thing? As to your question, 'What if men had been in subjection?' Then man would have been 'deceived' in the Garden and not the women. Enough said for now.
Guest 77
All this talk about subjection and do I think would I like to take the lead? Yes, sometimes, when I have a good idea, I would like to be in charge of implementing it, delegating aspects of it to capable people, and making sure there is follow through. I do take the lead, at times at work. There is quite a bit of satisfaction in accomplishing things and being responsible.
Hey, what mother is not a leader?
But, being in control of other adult people, to the point where they believe their eternal lives hinge on my favorable regard???????? I think a person would have to be extremely deluded to want that type of position.
I think the hardest thing in the world is gaining mastery over my own self. Sometimes I think that is what tyrants are all about--they have no idea how to rein in themselves or even have enough awareness to realize they have a problem so they strive to control others, they distract themselves from their real problem and deficit.
In many cultures, the shaman is a woman. I think women are quite capable of inspiring others spiritually.I think it is the power structure in many religions that is the problem.
I think real spirituality is an individual journey and the real challenge is guiding one's self to a place of peace and compassion, connecting with the Great Spirit that is willing to lead us all.
My my this is an interesting thread. I for one don't want men to be in subjection, nor do I wish to be. I want true independence and equality, nothing less, nothing more.
Strong women want men to "be in charge" because our environment, our culture, and our society has taught them from infants to want a man to take care of them. I was raised that way too and had a real fear about it. Later in life I had the opportunity to live by myself for several years and I learned that I can take care of myself and I prefer it. I don't need a man in my life nor do I want one, but thats another story.
As for who was decieved by the snake in the garden of eden, that is a fable that has been used to bring guilt and reproach and subjection and even slavery to women for thousands of years. That fable was written to discredit the worship of the goddess, (worshipped for thousands of years pre-biblically and proven archeologically). In goddess worship the two main symbols were the tree, which symbolized knowledge and life, and the snake, which sheds its skin and so symbolizes how life can go on despite change and adversity. Men used those symbols against that society in order to wipe it off the face of the earth. (Read "When God was a Woman" or "The Chalice and the Blade") both have excellent references.
As for women being less intelligent or unable to read a map or helpless, yes there are women like that and yes there are men like that. I really don't think this topic was raised for people to start name-calling and bringing up their personal issues. I'll put up my IQ number against any man on this board.
Gretchen
I'll put up my IQ number against any man on this board.
I triple dog dare ya....to go up against JCanon!
Gumby
Sorry Heather, but I don't believe in fairytales, metaphors, etc.
When I'm with someone --- 1st agreement is --- I'm not the boss of you and vice versa. I'm not looking for anyone to take the lead for me. I can take the lead for myself. And that is how I raised my daughter and son. Be responsible for yourself. Be prepared for yourself. Don't try to 'subject' others nor accept that position for yourself.
Also, REJECT that biblical viewpoint - Men the head etc etc It is a load of tripe, after all the bible was written by men. Don't buy it hook line and sinker. Same with much of the literature that puts forth the themes you refer to.
This is what has worked for me. Another approach has worked for you. So we are both content in our positions and beliefs.
Sorry Heather, but I don't believe in fairytales, metaphors, etc. Bisous
I think you might be misunderstanding me. Somehow I may not have made it clear that I do not believe in men being the head. In my marriage to a JW, the headship thing caused my children and me untold misery. He ended up divorcing me because he didn't feel I was "submissive" enough.
In my current relationship, headship is not an issue. We have never talked about someone being the lead or head. We talk over everything and come to decisions together. We respect each other completely and cherish each other. Because we do, we would never want to hurt the other by trying to dominate. Headship stinks as far as I am concerned. What I have now is far better.
I am lucky enough to be in a relationship with a man who sets a wonderful example for other men. Women love him because he genuinely likes women as gender. He respects us and appreciate the qualities that make us uniquely feminine.I'd say he celebrates the feminine gender. His mother and sisters are very independant women. The youngest sister is single, holds two degrees and owns her own business.
Before I met Andy, I might have sound pretty disillusioned on the subject of the fairlytale metaphor. Also, remember, not all fairytale heroines are helpless, wimpy females. Think about the Disney version of Beauty and the Beast. Belle was a bookworm who rejected the town macho ladies man. She sacrficed her freedom to save her beloved father and fell in love with an ugly beast.
I hope it's clear to you, though, I don't believe headship is a workable thing for anyone. I do understand how you feel about the metaphor I have used. You could probably explain the same dynamics in a more technical way. Thank you for your views.
Heather
never mind.. minor thread hijack............ Carry on..Sassy
It's cool and you, Shotgun and Sally have been delightfully entertaining. No need to apologize. I like the witty banter.
Heather
I'll put up my IQ number against any man on this board.Gretchen
I was hoping you comment on this subject. And I bet you would meet your challege with flying colors.
Heather
I'm always up for a bit of subjugation...
Sincerely,
District Overbeer of the "Mea Culpa" class
