Letter to Greg Stafford

Bostero

Hello all,
This is a letter I wrote to Mr. Stafford concerning a debate he Had with Dr. James White on the issue of "Is Jesus God or a god". I would like as many opinios as possible.

Hello Mr. Stafford,
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> I just had a couple of questions concerning the debate you had with Dr. JAmes White. First of all I would like to tell you that I'm not trying to argue or prove a point. I am actually a sincere seeker just looking for answers and like it was put on the debate, "searching for the TRUTH."
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> My mother in-law is a member of the Jehovah's Witnesses and we discuss issues all the time. I've been raised a "Trinitarian" so unfortunately it is impossible to address the issue w/out having a preconceived notion that the trinity is real. So I would like answers to help figure out if I'm wrong in my belief or if I right.
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> During the debate you brought up John 17:3 and affirmed that Jesus said "...you are the only true God." Now it has been established that Jesus did say this. We all know that. The hermeneutics is in question however. In other words, the text is not the problem because the text has not changed. The problem is with the interpreter. Now if Jesus said that the Father is the only true God(with the word only meaning specifically what it means, no other) than what kind of God or a god is Jesus. To say that there is only one true Almighty God and other small true gods or god is unwarranted in the scripture. It is not allowed in that text. It says that the only true God is the father, than by inescapable logic, the son who is another god, cannot also be a true God or god, therefore must be a false God or god. A reasoning that I'm sure we both disagree with.
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> Another point or question that I have has to do with the immutability of God. We agree that God is immutable. He does not change. He does not add characteristics to Himself because if He did he would be changing. (This is not the same as the incarnation. That we can discuss in another time) We know that God loves because He is love. In His nature there is love. Is it possible for someone to love something that does not exist. In other words, can you love nothing? No! How can you love something that is not there for you to love. If at one point in time, the Father was without the Son, what then did He love? Himself? We love our self and that is a character of sin. Also we love ourselves but we first learn what love is by loving someone or something else, like our parents as children. So the question is, who did the Father love when there was no Son?
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> I assume or presuppose that you believe as well as I do, that in Isaiah 9:6 it is referring to the Son, or the Logos. I also acknowledge that you believe that Mighty God referring to the Logos is not the same as Almighty God when referring to the Father. So I don't want to ask you about that because I know that you acknowledge that Jesus is a "Mighty god" but not "Almighty God". But what I do want to ask you, what does "eternal Father" mean to you in that same verse. Does it mean that The Logos is the Father? I don't believe you would say that. So what does "eternal Father" mean. We know that yes, the Logos is a "Mighty God or god" He is the "Wonderful Counselor" He is the "Prince of Peace". But now we need to know what "Eternal Father" is. Does it mean that He is the father of eternity? If this is the case, by definition and logical reasoning and conclusion, then the Son must be before eternity (hence father) therefore be himself eternal.
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> For now my last question deals with asking you a personal question. Are you a Jehovah's Witness or are you just defending what they believe but are not actually a Witness? The reason for me asking, is that my mother in law has told me that Jehovah's Witnesses are not permitted to debate or argue or try to win arguments like one might do in a formal debate. Also I was under the impression from what my mother in law told me and what I've read in "The Watchtower Magazine" that Jehovah's Witnesses are not permitted or should not read lite> rature that is contrary or against the watchtower. That doing so, is like reading or looking at pornography. Also, one who is a Jehovah's Witness is not allowed to put out literature unless it has been written by the governing body or of someone who works in the watchtower. And also that the literature that is acceptable for study are the ones that are published or written by the watchtower. Granted I may be wrong because things might have changed from when I last spoke to my mother in law.
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> Thank You In Advance For Your Reply

Satanus

Generally good, imo. I like the reasoning on trinity. Just a question on another concept. However, this may not affect the intent towards stafford.

We love our self and that is a character of sin. Also we love ourselves but we first learn what love is by loving someone or something else, like our parents as children.

Psychiatry has concluded that we cannot love another unless we love ourselves first. If one labels self love as sinful or perhaps as the root of sin (?) one is therefore doing violence to the psyche. If one never commits the sin of loving oneself, one can never have the capacity to love another, or god. Putting it more simply; sinning is essential to loving god.

SS

peacefulpete

John 17 is a late adition to the book. Isaiah 6:9 has nothing to do with Jesus. (see my old thread 'Is 6:9 is it about Jesus?') Debates about interpretation of scripture are futile. The Bible is an extensively edited collection of works that present evolving views of theology. Stick around and participate in discussions here.

Bostero

Peaceful, first of all, I said Isaiah 9:6, not Isaiah 6:9. But if it was a typo on your part I'll still say, where did you get that Isaiah 9:6 is not about Jesus? Who is it about then, Jehovah? If you say yes it is Jehovah, then I'll say good job. You've done your hermeneutics. Now remember, I believe it was Jehovah, but maybe not in the sence you might think. You see, who else was "BORN" in this world, and was given the title, Wonderful Counselor, "MIGHTY GOD", ETERNAL FATHER", and "Prince of Peace". Was it the "Father" that was born? If not then who else other Jesus was given those magnificent titles? Please give Bible references with a good, interpretation, reason and logic.

Daniel

DanTheMan

First of all I would like to tell you that I'm not trying to argue or prove a point.

Could have fooled me!!! LOL

Bostero

Saint,
We first learn what love is by loving someone or something else. We learn this growing up. We would never just love ourself without having nothing or noone to love that we may even know what the term is. They Bible in numerous places tells us Deut 6:5 "You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might. And also Mar 12:30 AND YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH.' And in Luk 10:27 And he answered, "YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND; AND YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF." In all places We are told to love God with everything we have and more. We are told to love our neighbor as ourself in the sence that we need to put others before ourselves to I higher importance. Is there one place in the Bible where we are told to love ourseves? The Bible is the greatest psychiatric book.

Daniel

Bostero

Dan,

I realized it after my brother pointed it out to me. He said to me, "Is that the point you are trying to prove, that you are not trying to prove a point?" He confused me but I got the message. He knows more logic than me. Anyway I had already sent the letter so it was too late.

Daniel

peacefulpete

Sorry about the sloppy post. If you are sincerely wanting to understand why Is 9 is not about Jesus go the first page of my post history. (click on my name and it appears as an option) There was a thread entitled "Is 9 is it about Jesus?" Sorry but I cannot provide links from home with my webTV.

Carmel

Bostero,

Try looking up "Glory of God" in Arabic. You'll have your answer.

carmel

Bostero

Hello

Carmel, I'm sorry but I don't understand what you're saying nor do I understand your point. My answer to what question?

Letter to Greg Stafford

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