Bush Bash, Anti-gay marrige.

by SC_Guy 101 Replies latest social current

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  patio34

  Sigh, why do conservatives and Republicans tend to make it a Democratic vs. Republican issue, no matter what it is?

  I'm independent, conservative on some issues, and liberal on others. Personally, and here's a surprise to me even, I don't know how I feel on gay marriages. I just don't think it's the government's business to prevent people from being committed to each other and have equal rights.

  There's several issues that I don't know where I personally stand, but I am against the government legislating what people do.

  And the "slippery slope" argument is vapid, imo. Probably, as Phantom points out, similar arguments were made against sufferage, slavery, and other "workable" social conditions.

  Pat
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  Phantom Stranger

  I make no claim for any party or movement to receive credit today for progress made in the past.

  However, I do think that we can learn from reading the arguments made in the past, against changes that we acknowledge today to have been positive changes, resulting in progress as a nation.

  The arguments I reads today seem to use the same structure and attempt to invoke the same fears as past arguments against emancipation, suffrage, and racial integration.

  If the pro-amendment conservatives were simply arguing for state's rights - and going after state by state as they are already doing - that would be a principled position for them to take. Trotting out stale, tired arguments is not acting on principle - it's partisan rhetoric.

  Wonder which state's gonna secede over gay marriage... maybe those divorcees in Alabama will back out.

  Where's SF Jim nowadays?
• 

  ThiChi

  Why take Jefferson out of context?

  It is Freedom of Religion, not Freedom from Religion, see the difference?

  As Thomas Jefferson put it, "The God who gave us life gave us liberty at the same time." There are civil liberties because our Creator made us free. And also, responsible finally to Him.

  These words of Jefferson are particularly beautiful:

  Well aware that the opinions and belief of men depend not on their own will, but follow involuntarily the evidence proposed to their own minds, that Almighty God hath created the mind free, and manifested his Supreme will that free it shall remain, by making it altogether insusceptible of restraint: That all attempts to influence it by temporal punishments or burthens, or by civil incapacitations ...are a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, who being Lord both of body and mind, yet chose not to propagate it by either, as was in his Almighty power to do, but to extend it by its influence on reason alone... [A Bill for Establishing Religious Freedom]
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  ThiChi

  History tells us that President Thomas Jefferson regularly attended church in the offices of our House of Representatives. During Jefferson's 3rd presidency (1801-1809) the church services in our House of Representatives was the largest church in America. President Jefferson also had the Marine Corps Band play for the church services each Sunday. Jefferson and our other Congressmen did not consider this an establishment of a national denomination and they believed that they could honor and worship God in our government buildings. Our Supreme Court facilities were also used by our early government leaders and townspeople for church services. Some modern judges and the ACLU apparently do not know nor respect our history or the original intent of our Founders.
  

  don't miss my above post to your out of context views....

  Our current Chief Justice of the US Supreme Court said: The "separation of church and state" is a metaphor based upon bad history & worse law. It has made chaos out of judgments and should be frankly and explicitly abandoned." William Rheinquist, our current Chief Justice of the US Supreme Court.

  The words nor the term "separation of church and state" are in our American Constitution nor are they in the Bill of Rights. It's time that we stopped this BIG LIE that there is some mythical law called the separation of church and state in the US Constitution. These words were only in the fallen Russian constitution. 70 years without God destroyed the USSR. We cannot let God be taken out of our nation. We do not want nor will we tolerate the ACLU and atheistic judges and courts destroying our beloved nation.

  123: Don't sry. just address the reasons to the claims made....
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  Phantom Stranger

  Then I suggest you exercise your religious freedom by not marrying a man.

  You kids have fun - I'm off to enjoy the rest of my Saturday outdoors.
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  Phantom Stranger

  Boy, you really refuted my case that Jefferson was an atheist. Wait...
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  ThiChi

  I regret that you did not address the issue of your claim, what our country was really founded on.....(Jefferson is my Favorite too)... enjoy the day!
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  ThiChi

  This was not the issue, however, you are still wrong. Don't you own a copy of the Jefferson Bible?

  It was Thomas Jefferson, during the writing of our constitution who said, "God, who gave us life gave us liberty...I pray God that these principals may be eternal", (and Patrick Henry once said, "it cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded not by religionists, but by Christians, not on religions but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ". )

  Those who visit the Jefferson Memorial in Washington will read Jefferson's words engraved: "I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every from of tyranny over the mind of man.
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  Phantom Stranger

  Apparently my comment was too subtle...

  I never said that Jefferson was not religious... You seemed to think that I said that, and I have no idea why, but I didn't say it.

  I simply pointed out one of many instances where he avoided associating the actions of the government with a particular religious belief.

  Apparently, to my surprise, there are many people who act as if the separation of church and state was not the intent of the founding fathers.

  For those who are new to this type of argument (I was), I refer you to the following links (which I will not attempt to summarize here... seems pointless.)

  http://www.au.org/about/ a page for the Americans United for the Separation of Church and State

  http://members.tripod.com/~candst/tnppage/arg1.htm a great resource responding to many arguments, one by one, demonstrating that said separation was indeed the intent of the FF, particularly Jefferson.

  So, t, you posit that the US should incorporate religious principles into its decisions and actions?

  Also, you state that I did not respond to some issue - I apologize, I'm not clear on what you'd like me to respond to.

  P.S. Your posts read a bit "mad-bomber"-ish... different fonts, spacing, size, etc. Are you composing in Word and then pasting? If so, you might want to use Notepad instead...fewer artifacts are introduced that way.
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  cruzanheart

  Well, the way I look at it, that proposed Constitutional amendment is very very unconstitutional. I don't think it matters what one thinks of homosexuals, let's look at this from a practical business standpoint. A man and a woman who get married, in addition to the sexual aspect, are entering into a CONTRACT. As long as they abide by that contract, they are entitled to certain benefits from the government, like insurance, Social Security benefits, etc., because they are a couple. Well, why can't gays make that same commitment? I think two people who are willing to make that kind of commitment, that CONTRACT, are entitled to the same benefits as two other people who happen to be of the opposite sex.

  Nina