I Find it all interesting!

by glode 36 Replies latest jw friends

  • esther
    esther

    Glode, welcome to the board. You say

    as for the shunning of Dfed ppl, I agree this is regrettable, however, the ones Dfed usually ARE guilty of something, and those that areinnocent would hopefully understand that no one, not even the elders are perfect

    The bible says that nothing should be added or taken away from the scriptures.

    According to Romans 1:24,25 worship belongs only to our Creator, not the creation. 2 John:9-11 says

    Everyone that pushes ahead and does not remain in the teaching of the Christ does not have God.
    It does not say "remain in the teaching of an organisation". So how can people who disagree with the society's view of the bible be wicked?

    The bible also shows that disfellowshipping should only be done when someone commits a serious sin. 1Cor5:1-5. Also, please note that according to 1 Cor5:11, it talks about not mixing in company with anyone called a brother.

    That means that if someone has declared that they no longer consider themselves one of Jehovah's Witnesses, they should not be disfellowshipped. Nowhere does it say that people who are not brothers should be shunned

    esther

  • hawkaw
    hawkaw

    Hi glode just a couple more quick points and then I hope that you read www.ajwrb.org and please check all references. Do not take my word for it - read and check the references.

    You said

    "I believe that since the Israelites were the only ones under the Mosaic law, they clearly wouldn’t matter about the other nations.. did Jehovah give note of what was to happen to anyone outside the realm of Israel?

    I remind you of the eternal covenant which addresses three main issues:
    1. Noah and his descendants may eat animal flesh, but not "flesh with its soul-its blood."
    2. Murder is forbidden - "Anyone shedding man's blood, ... will his own blood be shed..."
    3. Noah and his descendants are to produce offspring in abundance - "be fruitful and become many..."

    The WTS has argued that this is an "eternal covenant" that is binding upon all of mankind. If this is true can we pick and choose which parts of it are applicable and ignore others? But how could the law give permission to a foreigner to violate God's etnernal covenant with all of mankind? Obviously is can't and thus, Deut 14:21 shows the law doesn't apply to foreigners unlike what the WTS says.

    Go read Leviticus 17:15 - "As for any soul that eats a body [already] dead or something torn by a wild beast, whether a native or an alien resident, he must in that case wash his garments and bathe in water and be unclean until the evening; and he must be clean.

    The context argues against the WTS's explanation. If you examine Lev. 17:13,14 you will note that hunting was being discussed. It is only reasonable that the following verse is in some way related. An Israelite hunter would logically come across a dead body while hunting from time to time and this verse provided some guidance as to what could be done. Additionally, a lost or stranded Israelite might locate such a carcass and choose to eat it because he was hungry. These explanations are reasonable and logical, unlike the WTS's tortured logic which is necessary to support their blood doctrine. Remember no one in the bible died from failing to take a bath & it makes perfectly clear a native could eat unbled meat. (Portions taken from http://www.ajwrb.org/bible/qfr83.shtml)

    One final point you said

    They have stated, that the matter of blood fragments is to be a conscience matter, something which basically is them saying “we don’t have any clear evidence this is wrong, so if you can justify it, its up to you” I don’t find anything wrong with this stance

    The leadership and you seem to forget that these banned components are made using specialized techniques just like approved "fractions". Like just look at red blood. To make separate red blood cells, man-made machines, preservatives and anticoagulants are needed. Further machines and drug techniques are needed to separate white blood cells, platelets and plasma, and then break plasma down to albumin, globulins and the other natural parts found in blood ("Blood Components" Transfusion Medicine, University Pathology Consortium, LLC ( http://upcmd.com/transfusion_medicine/blood_products/rbc/product_description.html).

    What does the witness leadership (not necessarily the medical community) deems a blood fraction as well as whole blood transfusions of blood as long as recirculating occurs. Approved blood fractions include albumin which makes up 2.2% of blood and hemoglobin which makes up 14.7% of blood. The leaders have banned blood components that include red blood cells, plasma, white blood cells (which makes up only 1% of blood) and platelets (which makes up only 0.17% of blood). Very rarely does a doctor transfuse whole blood but instead gives the separate blood product you need.

    Seeing all these man-made techniques are required to make banned and approved blood products, just where in the bible does it say it is not okay to take a blood component like red blood cells but it is okay to take transfusions of fractions like hemoglobin (which makes up 97% of a red blood cell by dry weight).

    Also you should consider the determination of a banned blood product - The leadership will tell you their bible based reasons why they do not accept whole blood or the 4 major blood components. So where in the bible do you see what constitutes a major blood component? No where. Thus, the witness will refer you to an encyclopedia or other medical research to show red blood cells, white blood cells, platelets and plasma are the major components of blood and thus, are banned.. But just look at page 237 of "Modern Blood Banking and Transfusion Practices - Fouth Edition", by Denise M. Harmening, PhD, Chair and Professor, Dept. of Medical Research at the Univ. of Maryland. On this page we find a discussion of major components of blood include red blood cells, white blood cells, platelets and plasma which are forbidden by the leadership. Interestingly, however, we also find Cryoprecipitated Antihemophilic Factor, Factor VIII concentrate, Athtithrombin III, Albumin, Plasma Protein Fraction, and immune Globulin are also listed and discussed as major blood components. Does it look like the leadership is manipulating the definition of banned blood component to fit its need instead of applying bible principles?

    Like I said, when you get done with www.ajwrb.org, I hope you and your conscience and of course your girlfriend and her conscience can think hard and determine if this doctrine is and was worth all of those young children dying.

    hawk

  • SixofNine
    SixofNine

    Glode, you said:

    I will obey the “abstain from blood” command as it is in the bible,

    Then you said:

    I will not be a sheep. Ever. I think for myself.

    The first statement belies the second statement. You haven't given even a modicum of thought to an issue that could mean life to you and your loved ones. Btw, are you of the opinion that life is sacred?

    Sheep? Maybe not nearly as baaadly as many Witnesses. Intelligent adult who reasons independantly? Not yet, but you're getting there. Hope the fear of losing your family doesn't scare you off from it.

  • glode
    glode

    Hey all! thanks for your thought filled replies!

    I will be reading through the material at the website, andi will definately respondto the points givensoon! just at work now,will respond when im at home!

  • Mazza
    Mazza

    Glode, You just lost my support. "Those d'fd are usually guilty of something"! You are an ignorant kid. You know nothing.
    Trust me - we did nothing. We just stopped believing in religion. Our real sin was being honest about it. We were young and popular in the congregation, and when the elders came to ask us what was wrong, we opened up. We did not seek out other members of the congregation to promote our ideas. We just stopped meetings and association with Witnesses. And for this - I've been cut off from my family for 20 yrs. Clearly you are too shallow to understand the significance of this - the pain and sorrow that followed - you have NO idea!!! Or is it that you are just so damned selfish that you can't see past your own life and how things affect you?

    When you grow up a little maybe you will mature enough to put yourself in the shoes of others and learn some empathy for those around you. On the other hand if you stay in the Organisation, your ability to care about others will remain stunted - that's how they (the WT elite) like it.

    Since leaving the WT I no longer blurt out one liners in the judgement of others. I see the world in shades of gray. Not black and white. For example. Timothy McVeigh. Much like you with your religious beliefs, he was mislead into a mind set that led him to make some serious errors of judgement. The mind is a trecherous thing - it can make YOUR viewpoint seem overwhelmingly right. And guess what? It's not. It's just all screwed up. I feel great pity that Timothy's life's experiences steered him in the wrong direction. I don't think Timothy was wicked as much as mentally betrayed. Something that might have corrected itself when he grew up a bit and saw the bigger picture than the one he was caught up in.

    What my point is, is that people aren't all bad - but they are products of their environoment and experiences. It's not a case of being born with a good heart condition or a bad one. Even had I done something note-worthy and deserving of being disfellowshipped - shunning is a fairly lousy way of dealing with a people in need of support and help. In my case though - well "the elders are imperfect" - so it's ok if they break up a few families, it will all come out in the wash eh? We don't want to hold imperfect men accountable do we? We only do that with the Catholics and false religions!?

    Marilyn

  • patio34
    patio34

    Hi Glode,

    I hope you enjoy your time here at the board. You are sure getting a lot to think about on this one thread!

    Marilyn,
    Nice to meet you too. Your comment about how jws don't appreciate all the pain df'g causes and assume that the df'd ones had all sinned. That woke me up to how I used to be for the 28 years in the WTBS--and how it's endoctrinated into us. Now that the shoe is on the other foot, it's obvious how wrong it was.

    I have left for intellectual reasons as have most of the folks here. Hardly an 'apostate' or more correctly, a heretic.

    I really enjoy your posts.

    Pat

  • Mazza
    Mazza

    Hi Pat - Nice way to put it. Leaving for intellectual reasons. For 20 yrs I've always said I stopped believing - but didn't think of it as an intellectual process. Of course it is. Another stupid practise the dubs have is saying that disfellowshipping will help you to see the error of your ways. Well - this really demonstrates the depth of their ignorance. Let's not deal in facts here friends - let's just emotionally blackmail you into believing again. Yeah - belief is something that comes from persecution isn't it? Just ask the Chinese how well it worked during the Cultural Revolution.

    Glode has two choices. He can run away, or he can test his religious beliefs out, honestly.

    Btw I'm Marilyn from H20 - I thought I remembered you posting there.

    warm regards
    Marilyn

  • RedhorseWoman
    RedhorseWoman

    Glode, my initial reaction when reading your first post in this thread was that you couldn't possibly be a JW. The liberalness of your congregation is by no means the norm, but is rather an aberration from the "proper" course of action and the "proper" way of thinking.

    Perhaps this is a good thing. If you should ever leave that particular area and have to deal with the religion as it is in a "normal, theocratic" congregation, I think you will be out the door in a heartbeat.

    Just remember when posting that your experiences are 180 degrees from the usual experiences. Your congregation does not reflect the Society's views on matters.

  • terraly
    terraly

    Hey Globe,

    So many well-wishers for you here... must be a bit tiresome.

    Anyway, just wanted to tell you a little story. I must be about your age (currently in college). So's my girlfriend. She was a Witness when she came here, but with serious doubts about evolution, disfellowshipping, and the role of women in the Witnesses.

    Because of these flaws she decided she didn't want to be a hypocrite and pretend to believe in an Organization which she no longer did- so she disassociated herself. What was wrong with that? Would you have rather she lived a lie?

    Now her mother will not see her for anything except "business". Certainly no meals... Why? Her mother is scared. She _has_ to shun her daughter (who only found flaws with a religion and left it) because if she doesn't she'll lose all her friends (all witnesses), her new husband, and portions of her family. It's a tearing choice to make, between one family member and the rest of your life- and there's no right answer to make.

    And so my girlfriend and her mother both still cry after every painful, awkward meeting between them.

    This is what is wrong with the organization.

    I pray you will never have to experience the disfellowshipping or disassociating of someone you love.

  • ozziepost
    ozziepost

    G'day Glode,

    Let me add my welcome to our happy home. Stick around, we'll all learn something!

    I was particularly interested in your choice of words "I also dont fully care about the doctrinal changes that have happened in the org, like 1975 or Generations"

    I am sure that many JWs are unaware of the full range of JW teachings. Now I don't mean to be rude to you, but could it be that being a JW for you is akin to belonging to a social club type of thing. Take the situation of conscription to the armed services. You would be 'called up'. As one of JWs you would have to take a stand and refuse. This would entail a court hearing at which you would be required to express your views and beliefs. And you would be cross-examined. Would you be able to express your beliefs? Would they be in harmony with what is taught by the Watch Tower organisation?

    So, you see, you cannot avoid, in the long run, being concerned about the 'doctrinal changes that have taken place'.

    You also said: "i do think that if any of the bad experiences with the bros were to happen to me, i would be out as well". So, if it doesn't affect you, you don't care? It is this 'head in the sand' approach that has resulted in a situation where we/you allow a tyranny to rule over us.

    You're lucky having further education. Please think about using it to help others, like those in need of real freedom.

    Cheers,
    Ozzie

    "Truth persuades by teaching, but does not teach by persuading."
    TERTULLIAN, Adversus Valentinianos

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