by patio34 51 Replies latest jw friends
patio,
You're probably right (even thought you're left...har-de-har..). Remember, there are a lot of conservative Christian ex-JWs who don't log into this site, which is mostly made up of secular or new-age ex-JWs. That might put a wrench in your estimation.
Oh well.
Me -- I'm a dyed in the wool Republican jingoist. Can't you tell?
One thing that I find annoying and frankly confusing is the American meaning of the word "liberal" differs from the use of the word "liberal" in the rest of the world. In fact if you look at any good English dictionary you'll find that "liberal" is generally defined as, (1) Not limited to or by established, traditional, orthodox, or authoritarian attitudes, views, or dogmas; free from bigotry. (2) Favoring proposals for reform, open to new ideas for progress, and tolerant of the ideas and behavior of others; broad-minded. It doesn?t say anything about high or low taxation, or gay marriage, or asylum seekers. It doesn?t say anything about the right to keep and bear arms. It doesn?t mention the rights or wrongs of abortion. There?s no mention of militant feminism there - at least not in my dictionary. In fact nor does it say whether you vote Democratic or Labour or Republican or Conservative or Green or if you don?t vote at all.
That's why Western democracies are often referred to as liberal democracies.
I like "progressive" instead...
I used to be right-wing as a JW, but not since. I'm not from any counter-culture movement from the 60's. My parents were both JWs since the early 50's and I was born into the JWs the mid-late 60's. I didn't start to have any real political views until the Reagan years and I was definately to the right. I feel it was very close to the religion. That sense of moral correctness. That people should let you dictate how they should live and then all will be well in their world. That all problems could be solved by following the right rules. I was a little concerned that Reagan might drag us into some major war, but I also was happy with some of the actions he took.
I began to leave the JWs during the Bush Sr.'s administration. I think at first, I stayed to the right. But over time, as I started to discover the world, I became more sympathetic towards people different from me. I've found great friends among people who use drugs, people who party a lot, people who are pagans, etc., etc. All the types that the right cannot seem to tolerate. My views began to shift.
Before long, I hooked up with the Burning Man community. If you're not familiar, it's kind of like the counter-culture of the 60's in many ways. As a whole, the group around here is very to the left and a few are very politically active. I watch how they bond as a community. How differences are resolved and most are respectful of others with different beliefs (as opposed to the way I see others get mean). I think it's all fantastic and it's also an ideal community for lefties. It depends on the issue, but for the majority of issues, my politics are very to the left now.
Since the war, the few right-wing people on my Burning Man lists have quieted down or disappeared too. I appreciated their perspective, so I miss them and do not know why they are gone. Perhaps the overwhelming leftist voice drove them away. In times of calm there aren't going to be many clashes if you're on the right or the left. But when things heat up, clashes occur. If you're overwhelmed, you probably leave.
I agree with many of your points, patio, I'm gald someone finally verbalized it that way.
jws, I've been going to BM since 1997. I consider myself fairly conservative, so does at least one of my campmates. So is thichi, another poster on this board, and he goes as well. Remember, Burning man used to have a drive by shooting range, not the most liberal thing in the world.
Anyway, I personally think "liberals" have just as much propensity for intolerance than anyone else, and are often blind to their own intolerans, i.e, "I'm a liberal, therefore am incapable of being intolerant," I held this same view as a younger, more naive, tree hugging liberal. Then I went to a womans studies class. Talk about intolerance. Men were the reason EVERYTHING was wrong with the world. I gave a dissenting view, and was tossed out of the class, merely for disagreeing. I have dozens more experiences. Don't get me wrong, intolerant conservatives are there too.
Yes, closed-mindedness is not the province of any particular group or school of thought. I know closed-minded liberals and open-minded conservatives.
War is a breakdown in communication. David Gerrold?
My parents were very upset with the government and very against the vietnam war, yet they were not into the drugs and wildness of the counter-culture. They were still, however, very anti-establishment. Then they were converted to the JWs around 1969 or 1970. It fit perfectly with their veiw that the world was falling apart and going all wrong, and gave them a 'safe place' to raise me.
I feel I was raised with very 'liberal' ideas, in an non-political kind of way. And now that my mom is out of the JWs, and can talk about politcal views openly, she mostly shares liberal-leaning thoughts.
My poor dad tried to raise me to be an independent, free-thinker AND a JW. He never could understand why I left!
I think this is a good theory, you have here, Patio. I'm sure my parents were not the only ones who came in at that time, thinking as they did.
-LisaBObeesa
Maybe it's penance for being a judgemental JW. I am quite liberal. Religiously, (according to online tests) I should be a liberal Quaker.
3rd
I think with the JW's you have this premise, that a better world IS possible, and "you too can have a part".
Once you leave the JW's, you either decide that a better world is not possible, and the best you can do is maintain status quo, then become a conservative, OR you decide that if you want that better world, you and others are going to have to make it happen, and you become a liberal.
Patio34
Your points make sense to me, but my personal experience with other xJWs is pretty much limited to this DB, so I won't hazard a guess as to the general status of my peers.
For me, it was a matter of not liking the status quo. It's hard for me to say about my upbringing because my family is way liberal on some issues, and conservative on others.
Going close to Matty's dictionary definitions, we Canadians tend to see "liberal" as open to change, and "conservative" as maintaining the status quo, and not as quickly identifiable with a political party and its issues (eg, our "Liberal" party is most definitely 'conservative'). So I'm definitely a liberal *thinker*.
My reasons for being that way? Couldn't have said it better than gitasatsangha (described my thoughts to a 'tee').
tal
btw, hope your sniffles are clearing up, here, have another tea.
and Happy St. Patty's day to you, too !
