IMPALEMENT OR CRUCIFIXION?

by BluesBrother 16 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • BluesBrother
    BluesBrother

    http://www.uncc.edu/jdtabor/crucifixion.html

    Given the topicality of the Passion of The Christ, it got me thinking again about the manner of his death..

    I had always been led to believe , in my days as a dub , that death on a stake was far more likely and logical because to be suspended with spread arms would place too much centre of gravity in the centre and the body would pitch forward.. Given that Jesus took several hours to die, I found the following quote from .the above site interesting .

    "PHYSIOLOGICAL RESPONSE TO CRUCIFIXION
    17 P. Barbet 1953 Les Cinq Plaies du Christ 2nd ed. Paris: Procure du Carmel de l' Action de Graces. The complicated and much debated issue regarding how the individual expired on the cross has generated widespread debate over the years. While many researchers have believed that death occurred as the result of a ruptured heart 11 due to the story in John 19:34 of the water and blood flowing out of the wound, pathologists such as Zugibe, 12 have ruled this out as medically untenable. Other scholars 13 have regarded asphyxiation as being the cause of death, however the latest research findings have shown the issue to be more complicated, depending upon the manner in which the victim was affixed to the cross. A series of experiments carried out by an American medical examiner and pathologist on college students who volunteered to be tied to crosses, showed that if the students were suspended from crosses with their arms outstretched in the traditional manner depicted in Christian art, they experienced no problems breathing. 14 Thus the often quoted theory that death on the cross is the result of asphyxiation is no longer tenable if the arms are outstretched. According to the physiological response of the students, which was closely monitored by Zugibe, death in this manner is the result of the victim going into hypovolemic shock. 15 Death is this manner can be in, a manner of hours, or days depending on the manner in which the victim is affixed to the cross. If the victim is crucified with a small seat, a sedile, affixed to the uptight for minimum support in the region of the buttocks, death can be prolonged for hours and days. In fact, Josephus reports that three friends of his were being crucified in Thecoa by the Romans who, upon intervention by Josephus to Titus were removed from the crosses and with medical care one survived. 16 If, however, the victims are tied with their hands extended over their heads and left hanging, death can occur within an hour or, in minutes if the victims legs are nailed so that he cannot use his arms to elevate the body to exhale. For exhaling to occur in a normal manner two sets of muscles are needed, the diaphragm and. the intercostalis muscles between the ribs. With the victims being suspended by their arms directly over their heads, these sets of muscles cannot function properly which results in the victims inability to exhale and results in asphyxiation. Eyewitness accounts by prisoners of war in Dacchu during WWII reported that victims suspended from beams by their wrist, which were tied, expired within ten minutes if their feet were weighted or tied down and within one hour if their feet were unweighted and the victim was able to raise and lower himself to permit respiration. Death in this manner, which is one form of crucifixion, was the result of suffocation. 17

    As a deterrent in the ancient world, many of its victims were crucified where the criminal event took place as was the case with thieves or along the cities busiest thoroughfares. The situation can perhaps best be summed up by Quintilian who wrote that, "whenever we crucify the guilty, the most, crowded roads are chosen, where most people can see and be moved by this fear. For penalties relate not so much to retribution as to their exemplary effect." 18 18 Quintilian (AD 35-95)
    Decl 274
    As one of the main objectives of this cruel method of execution was its deterrent value, Roman authorities also devised various means whereby the victim could remain on the cross for days in public before eventually expiring. Thus the manner in which the victims were crucified was not fixed by law but appears dependent on the number of individuals involved, the sadistic ingenuity of those carrying out the execution and the time needed for this spectacle to have its maximum deterrent effect.

    Giving the victim a proper burial following death on the cross, during the Roman period was rare and in most cases simply not permitted in order to continue the humiliation. Thus the victim was in many cases simply thrown on the garbage dump of the city or left on the cross as food for wild beasts and birds of prey.
  • stillajwexelder
    stillajwexelder

    I never had stong feelings on the subject -- I just loyally repeated the WTBTS line on the stake -they may be right they may be wrong

  • gitasatsangha
    gitasatsangha

    I've wondered for awhile why the Society uses the term Impalement. Impalement as an exectuion method,does not mean being affixed to an upgright beam by nails. It literally means being spitted.

    Encyclopedia: Impalement

    Impalement is an act of torture or execution whereby the victim is pierced by a long stake, through the sides, or even from rectum through the mouth. The stake would be usually planted in the ground, leaving the victim hanging to die from blood loss. Medieval tyrants like Vlad III Dracula and Ivan the Terrible were quite fond of dispatching undesirables in this way. It was also used as a systematic way of executing prisoners immediately after a battle. Impalement is considered a very cruel and painful death.

    The society HAS to know this.I really do feel the society has some inner hatred of Jesus (denegrating him to Archangel, the bizarre memorial procedures, "impalement" as a rape allegory)

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    BluesBrother....Of course, this subject was of great interest to me while I was in the bOrg. My conclusions, after looking at the evidence:

    1) The Romans did crucify prisoners and slaves in the first century with a two-beamed cross and the words crux and stauros did denote such an execution instrument (cf. Plautus, Lucian, Artemidorus, Seneca, Tacitus). The Society's repeated claim that Livy used crux to only denote impalement is without merit. The claim that Lucian used anastaroo to denote impalement in his play on Prometheus is also contradicted by the evidence. By claiming that crux and stauros did not mean "cross" until the third century, the Society is intentionally distorting and hiding the facts.

    2) The Gospel accounts assume a two-beamed cross, especially in the motif of Jesus or Simon of Cyrene carrying the cross on the way to Golgotha (cf. John 19:17) which is nothing other than the widely-attested practice of patibulum-bearing (the patibulum was the crossbeam). This practice pre-existed the invention of crucifixion as a method to torture disobediant slaves (cf. Dionysius of Halicarnassus, Plutarch) and was widely adopted as a prelude to crucifixion (cf. Plautus, Plutarch, Artemidorus, Chariton). The Society would instead require Jesus or Simn to carry a pole to Golgotha (actually pictured in the Greatest Man Who Ever Lived book (1991, chapter 124), which is utterly without any historical support and ignores the copious evidence of patibulum-bearing. The traditional Christian picture of Jesus carrying the whole cross over one of his shoulders (seen in the Passion of the Christ movie) is also unhistorical....what the Romans did was have the prisoner stretch out his hands, nail or tie the hands to the crossbeam, and then having him bear the beam over his back or chest to the stationary stipes (vertical beam), and then hoist him up to the cross. This practice is also alluded to in John 21:18-19 which also assumes a two-beamed cross. Details in John 20:25 and Matthew 27:37 are also best explained by assuming a two-beamed cross.

    3) The use of the word xylon "tree, wood" in Acts 5:30; 10:39; 13:29, Galatians 3:13, and 1 Peter 2:24 does not indicate the kind of stauros Jesus died on, only that the Bible writers understood Roman crucifixion in terms of the law in Deuteronomy 21:23-23. Other Jewish writers referred to Roman crosses in the same manner (including the Dead Sea Scrolls, Philo, Josephus), and Roman writers also referred to Roman crosses metaphorically as "trees" (cf. Seneca).

    4) There was a strong tradition in late first century and second century Christianity that repeatedly looked for prophecies and prefigurings of the two-beamed cross of Jesus in the OT, and described the stretching out of the hands from side to side as a sign of Jesus' cross.

    And to anticipate someone saying "What difference does it make what kind of cross Jesus died on," it makes no difference from a theological point of view, but that is not what we are discussing....it is a historical matter, and it is certainly a valid matter to discuss if the Society repeatedly distorts the facts on the matter. It is just another instance of lies and deception by the Watchtower.

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    gita....Yes, I always noticed that too. For all the noise the Society made about what crux and stauros really meant (claims which are bogus anyway), they couldn't even get the English word "impalement" right! It generally has a sense of piercing or enclosure in English.

    As point of fact, the word crux in Latin did denote just sort of an execution. In Greek, skolops was often used to refer to it.

    Video istic cruces non unius quidem generis sed aliter ab aliis fabricatas: capite quidam conversos in terram suspendere, alii per obscena stipitem egerunt, alii brachia patibulo explicuerunt.
    "Yonder I see crosses, not indeed of a single kind, but differently contrived by different peoples; some hang their victims with head toward the ground, some impale their private parts, others stretch out their arms on a crossbeam." (Seneca, De Consolatione, 20,3)
    Cogita hoc loco carcerem et cruces et eculeos et uncum et adactum per medium hominem, qui per os emergeret, stipitem.
    "Picture to yourself under this head the prison, the crux, the rack, the hook, and the stake which they drive straight through a man until it protrudes from his throat." (Seneca, Epistle 14,5)

    Pretty gruesome.

  • gitasatsangha
    gitasatsangha

    I am beginning to believe that these little oddities by the JW theologians (rejecting christ's body and blood at the memorial, impalement, reluctance to refer to Christ as Lord, etc.) are not done by accident or randomly.

  • Carmel
    Carmel

    Like it mattered? I always thought it was another "we're better than you" position the dubs took..

    carmel

  • heathen
    heathen

    These discussions always seem to get my attention . It is pretty clear that in the gospels it was the jews who made the motion to have jesus executed . The mosaic law does mention hanging from a tree or stake for some of which if you read it,(Deuteronomy 21:22-23) also mentions the neccessity for the convict to be dead and burried on the same day , it would seem that they may have devised a method to keep jesus suffering for as long as they could knowing some of the old testament prophesies about the messiah being peirced and no bones broken because if they were alive at sunset they would have to break the legs in order to insure they were dead . ( john 19: 36-37). It is interesting that to impale someone the way the WTBTS believes they would have had to have put one nail throught both wrists where as if he was crucified it would have taken 2 nails and as we know the hand has more bones than any other part of the body , I don't know how you get nails in the hand without breaking a bone . But look what John 20 : 25-27 says. Something does smell fishy about the whole cross vs. stake argument.

  • MorpheuzX
    MorpheuzX

    Sounds like a choice on The Price Is Right...I can hear Bob Barker now.

  • amac
    amac

    Leolaia - I've sent you a PM on this, please check...

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