Need some advice/input for a possible "showdown."

robhic

I asked my JW girlfriend some questions a while back that she was unable to answer so I gave her cites from WTS literature to backup my assertions. I could see a glimmer of confusion that maybe I had a point. Now she wants me to just have a nice little chat with her good Pioneer friend (black lady, very nice in her mid 50's) to ask the questions so that someone more knowlegeable can take a shot at my queries.

So my question is how should I go about this informal little chat? I don't want to come out like the Mega-Heathen and I want to stay away from bible stuff because this woman will chew me up and spit me out. I'd like to keep it centered on my questions about WTS doctrines, flip-flops, issues, etc. I don't want it to get ugly but I don't want this woman using "Yes but it's invisible so you should believe it" or "because the WTS says so and they talk to Jehovah" to back her assertions. I want facts, ma'am, just the facts!

Can you give me any pointers or suggestions of how to approach and get thru this without looking like a dick or a heathen bastard? Skim thru some books I have (Crisis of Conscience, etc.) beforehand or any good opening gambit I should keep in mind? Good questions I can open with? I don't want to be adversarial and don't want to do a "You're wrong about 1914, you dumbass!" type thing but I'd like to know what might happen and how I should try to keep this about WTS issues and not let myself get clobbered by her much better knowledege of the bible itself.

On a side note, my JW girlfriend asked me to marry her yesterday! I really don't think the two situations are related nor are some nefarious plan. She's just not nefarious... She also wondered, if I didn't mind, if a simple ceremony at the KH would be all right. I don't think she knows as much about JW as she thinks. I don't see a JW-nonJW wedding taking place with their approval, much less using their hall.

Anyway, I certainly appreciate any tips on how to keep from getting slaughtered and just asking some simple, WTS literature-backed up questions and see what happens. Thanks to any and all who can give me any input regarding this potential showdown.

Robert

mouthy

You could start by saying -you think the JWs really go to their bible- But you were confused when you read Deut 18:20-22....Because you were aware of the false prophesis THEY had made... then mention the 1799,1846,1874,1878,1881,1910,1914, 1925, 1975 etc ..... The bible says not to be afraid of these false prophets. But of course you also have to remember they have a SPIRIT within them ( of deception) the Bible also tells us that. So dont think your going to win with her. the DEVIL has power....Not more than GOD but you will be with >>>>TWO deceptive spirits ---Your girlfriend & the Witness, Sorry I cant help---but I have to give you A for effort. I cant see how they allow her to date you???? a Pagen LOL!!!!

eyeslice

Robert,

I am not sure a showdown - my advice would be think about your relationship first and see how your g/f really feels about wanting to continue as a Witness possibly married to a "non-believer". The old Witnesses advice when talking about making new converts is "build new bridges before you tear old ones down".

As to getting married in a Kingdom Hall I can tell you the exact position on that will be a firm NO. There are strict rules about using a Kingdom Hall for marriages which basically dictate only baptised witness in "good standing" can use the Kingdom Hall for a marriage. The only exception to that would be in "exceptional" circumstances where one or both were at the point of baptism, waiting for the next assembly to come round but needed to get married before then. Here I am not talking about the bride being pregnant! The sort of thing they would have in mind would be one of the parties was terminally ill and might not live. I must say, however, in all my years I have never come across an "exceptional" case.

eyeslice

blondie

She also wondered, if I didn't mind, if a simple ceremony at the KH would be all right. I don't think she knows as much about JW as she thinks. I don't see a JW-nonJW wedding taking place with their approval, much less using their hall.

Just a note: a simple ceremony at the KH between a JW and a non-JW is not allowed, trust me on this one.

She can marry a non-JW but should expect strong resistance from JWs and being "marked" as bad association.

I think I gave quotes on this just recently.

I would stick with the points you made with your girlfriend. Keep it to 2 or 3 and keep it on topic. JWs are good at avoiding the point and starting a new topic when they are "losing" the discussion.

Blondie

jgnat

A typical gambit by a cornered witness is that they have to go study the matter further. So I would stick to two or three subjects that a Pioneer should be very familiar with. Also, before you start, ask some introductory questions about her background of her faith, how much she has studied, etc. etc. Then, if she tries to back out later, show shock and surprise that she is not prepared to answer simple questions! If you show a pleasant and kind demeanor throughout, you should not run in to too much trouble.

Hmmmmm. Secular topics that a JW should be able to answer:

Is it true that they used to be forbidden to have organ transplants? Why did they later change their minds?
Why are some events and activities forbidden because they are "pagan" in origin, and others for no stated reason, and others accepted for no stated reason? For example, wedding rings are accepted (pagan origin), Mother's Day and Thanksgiving a no-no (not pagan origin).

I would like to be a fly on the wall when your girlfriend asks to use the KH for the wedding!

avishai

Use their own material against them. http://quotes.watchtower.ca/ This website rocks.

franklin J

Robert,

Congratulations on your pending nuptials! that is always nice news! If you love the girl; by all means marry her! But to further Blondies post; JWs usually do not marry outside their faith. Why is she involved with you? Unless she is not a very strong JW. When I was a JW, mixed marriages were not permitted. they may have changed their thinking; specially to allow the services in the KH

About your discussion with her pioneer friend; my advice is : DO NOT GET INVOLVED. Very simply put, no matter how well articulated and researched your arguemnet will be; to these people and their mindset you will ALWAYS be wrong. There is nothing you could say or do to convince her pioneer friend that you have a rational point. She simply will not accept it and will refute it with some Watchtowere nonsense.

As for the situation with your new "fiance"----ah, well that is something between you and her; to work out. If you love her---go for it! And try to get her to follow you OUT; instead of her dragging you IN.

Best of luck to you both! Frank

peacefulpete

I understand why you feel that her friend will come accross as an expert in the Bible but in reality that is far from the truth. JWs and Fundementalists in general have very little knowledge about the Bible as a book. They have memeorized a complicated series if quotations to present a modern religious position. There is a great difference. Because arguing interpretation of scripture is futile, I would avoid doctrinal topics. Instead throw her completely for a loop by asking questions like "According to JWs who gave Israel to Jehovah? reading Deut.32:8,9. (answer has been posted a couple times but i'll refer to my thread last year entitled "who gave Isreal to Jehovah", yes I misspelled Israel in the title) Read and print off some of the threads posted by Leolaia, Narkissos or me and approach the matter as curious reader of the Bible as literature not as an expert. She will attempt to change the topic or will say simply that she will do research on it then attempt to talk about the paradise and the name Jehovah or something. Refuse to allow that then ask if she has really researched the Bible outside JW references. She will likely say she has but when asked she will not come up with anything outside quotes in the WT literature. Do not allow her to look bad but quickly assure her you understand how easy it is to believe we have the end-all on Bible knowledge. After all every church member similarly believes they have "the truth". The hard part is recognizing the same is true of ourselves. Done swiftly and with you on the offensive with politness and humility the conversation will reveal the shallowness of JW scholarship to your girlfriend. This coupled with the flak she'll get for being engaged to you may break the spell of indoctrination. The one vulnerable spot in the JW is their arrogance about being Bible scholars. Rarely with they back down from a Bible question confident they have or can find all the answers. By hitting there politely and with printed material to discuss you will see a very troubled and dazed JW. Do this for yourself, your girlfriend and possibly even for her friend.

garybuss

I'd rather have all my teeth pulled out through my ass than even think about marrying a Witness. Incredibly stupid idea. I'd show the JW girlfriend and her friend the tail lights of my pickup from about a mile away . . . . getting smaller and smaller. And I am writing from expereince here. Run! GaryB

Frannie Banannie

LOL, Gary! (visualizes Gary getting "tooth-ectomy")

Frannie B

Need some advice/input for a possible "showdown."

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