BS
Not that a reference would make any difference to you, the way you are feeling now, but ... http://www.thenation.com/docprint.mhtml?i=20040216&s=kleveman
Pork
The part i read spoke for itself.
SS
The Road to Iraq - 237 Lies
by Satanus 65 Replies latest social current
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Satanus
Yeru
Btw, amnesty international contradicts your figure of 7000 civilians killed in the last yr. Anmesty gives a figure of more than 10000. That's the same as the figure you gave for saddam. If saddam actually killed that many, then us soldiers are doing as well as saddam was. But, i suspect that the saddam victim number will be reduced later, when the pressure of politics goes down.
Thursday 18 March 2004
In a report made public a few days before the first anniversary of the United States' start of the war in Iraq, Amnesty International denounces the "flagrant human rights violations" there.
More than 10.000 Iraqi civilians have been killed since the American invasion of Iraq a year ago, asserts Amnesty International, which denounces the "flagrant violations" of human rights in the country in a report released March 18. These figures corroborate the figure given by Iraq Body Count, a site which captures and collates data from numerous sources and which exceeded the threshold of 10,000 civilians killed on February 8.
"One year after the beginning of the war in Iraq, the promise of an improvement in human rights for Iraqis is far from being realized," asserts the human rights defense organization in its report.
According to Amnesty, it is estimated that "over 10,000 Iraqi civilians have been killed in a year as a result of the military intervention in Iraq and the occupation which has followed. "One year after the war began, Iraqi civilians are still being killed every day," emphasizes the report, according to which, "a great number of them seem to have died either because of excessive use of force by American troops or were killed in controversial circumstances."
Death in Detention
Amnesty recalls that it was "asked on several occasions to produce an independent and impartial inquiry into the civilians killed by coalition forces.
At the same time, the report emphasizes, "Iraqi civilians confront the danger represented by attacks apparently conducted by armed groups, which have "killed hundreds of civilians," according to the communiqué.
The report adds that "thousands of people have been detained (by coalition forces), often under difficult conditions, many have been tortured, and some have died in detention."
Amnesty indicates that the Provisional Authority of the United States-led coalition "acknowledges detaining 8,500 people, but an Iraqi human rights organization estimates the number of prisoners at 15,000."
http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/032004H.shtml
SS
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patio34
Thanks for that SS--I was going to post it as I heard about it on the radio. But didn't have the nerves to read all the right-wing replies!
I'm not going to read them on this thread either. Both sides are pretty predictable and it seems comparable lately to scripture-slinging amongst religions.
I'm taking a break from discussing these things for a while--at least on JWD.
Thanks again!
Patio
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Satanus
Patio
You're welcome.
I'm taking a break from discussing these things for a while
I understand. Politics does go a bit like religion.
SS
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blacksheep
"Not that a reference would make any difference to you, the way you are feeling now, but ..."
So you know how I'm "feeling"? Interesting. Regardless, never heard of Lutz, don't see any credentials listed. Plus, I don't believe everything I read, esp when the writer obviously hate mongering.
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blacksheep
"I understand. Politics does go a bit like religion."
Yep. Remember the 3 things you're not to discuss in "polite" company? Sex, Religion, and Politics. Well, guess what, those of the 3 things that are mostly discussed on this board. People need to add a few layers of skin if they want to discuss these topics.
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Abaddon
Yeru
No insistance has been dropped, you merely clutch at straws
I gave both the number at the foot of the page (5), and the page number given at the foot of Adobe Acrobat (11). You quote from somewhere completely different, here's what I reffered to;
In 10 instances, however, the statements included in the database were false statments that directly contradicted facts known at the time by the Administration.
Gosh Yeru, you seem to have misquoted something with a misleading end result. Of course there's no way this could be intentional...
You're... not a... Republican by any chance are you?
Oh, and re. any attempt at 'spin' by arguing that making a statement you know to be false is not lying will just be ignored and filed under 'well, then they're incompetant'.
I'm glad you convince yourself Yeru, but, ask yourself, is the fact they convince you reassuring to the rest of us?
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Realist
hey dubla!
you are still around??? and you still do not belong to the class of americans who believe Bush lied to them??? amazing!!!
have a good one!
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dubla
realist-
anything is possible......what my post said was that anyone who truly believes bush lied, also has to believe kerry lied....so it leaves that person with a dilemna come voting time. imo, they both believed saddam had wmds.......it makes the most sense when you look at saddams past actions and unwillingness to comply with the u.n. resolution. if you believe they both lied, thats works too, and doesnt change the fact my post pointed out.
aa
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Rabbit
Xena:
Well I believe Bush lied...he's a politician.
Xena, I think has hit the nail --- square on the head. If anybody thinks ANY favorite politician (or a hated one!) doesn't lie to further his image and career, they don't fully understand the way politics have been for thousands of years...and will always be! No doubt, there have been a few who were honest and also 'right or wrong' at the same time. There are lesser and greater evils and politicians that 'fit' the times.
What disturbs me, here on this thread, is to see people, who normally are 'playing nicely' with others...attacking each other by association. Some people are acting like they do when they bash others on some of the 'gay' threads. Like, well if you're for Bush -- you are 'this' way, if you're for Kerry -- you 'stand for' that way...blanket generalisations are very dangerous and unfair.
I see others speaking in such general blanket terms about others, that is offending, like the seeming ganging up on Americans, especially (since I am one). Americans are being spoken of as 'one' mind set, the same with British and Canadians. None of us are the same...I certainly have my own mind. This is just as bad in principle, as what terrorists do...bombing innocents, just because of their ethnicity or what country you come from.
I don't represent America or Bush, I don't think any of y'all claim to do the same with your countries or your races, either.
I will support some politicians 'conditionally', i.e. like him on this, but not that... I like Bush, only for what I perceive to be 'his strength of leadership in war on terrorism'. I think even with civilian deaths, the country of Iraq and Afganistan the future of those countries is better -- because, they do have more freedom now and that will increase soon. No change of politics can take place without misery of some sort.
Can any of us here say we didn't suffer, going from a totalitarian religious regime to the relative freedom we enjoy now ?
The same can be said, for people living under a total dictatorship . As we know...there are many dead bodies and injured people coming from the our own JW religion, as well as 'politicians' like Hitler and others in the world. I personally wish, every dictator would be taken down as quickly as possible, after negociations, of course. Some countries are just too big to take on successfully. China, for instance...with nuclear capabilities and 1.6 billion people, their vast army and unbelievable logistics of trying to limit civilian deaths would seem to be impossible to wage. Besides, they seem to be coming around slowly, as are others. I don't think Libyan leader, Gadafi, would have gotten so cooperative...revealing his Nuke program, as well as implicating other 'Theocratic Muslim' countries, too.
In this election there's only 3 people... Bush, Kerry & Ralph Nader. As I said, Ralph Nader is my only choice for the environment and human rights. He won't get elected tho'... Kerry fought in, then opposed Vietnam. He voted for funding the Iraq war, then voted against it, he WILL raise taxes. There are too many things about him I do not trust. Whats left is -- Bush, I trust him to never stop the war with terrorists, he won't raise taxes, so-o that's why if I vote, it will be him.
BTW, 20 miles on one side of all I know and love is...a Nuclear Power plant, 20 miles on the other is an Air Force/Navy Airbase with Stealth bombers, B-52's and lots of Nukes, too. Right next door to that...is the Lockheed plant where they make the F-16's. This is Ft.Worth, Texas. Am I worried about terrorists with nukes or dirty-nuke bombs ? Do fish swim ?
I must go on the side of safety for me and mine...when the wars are over, we'll need somebody for social and environmental concerns.
Guys n' gals, this is a brave new world for most of us...I hope we don't now fall into the dark hole of nationalism, when we are just now crawling out of the filthy, lying hole of a false religion. We may feel a need to 'belong' to something bigger than ourselves, my opinion is, just because we are born in a particular geographic 'spot' on the earth...we don't owe them anything and we should not 'pegged' as representing that country.
Just my opinion and I'm stickin' to it ! Now...y'all go have a cold and chill out...or in England a warm
yeck, Enjoy