Get a life - stop posting. Why?

by philo 21 Replies latest jw friends

  • philo
    philo

    Newbies and others are often saying, "move on", in other words, get a life, remove yourselves from the influence of WTism completely. There are many good answers to this, but I think there is one answer, which has not been much considered. The international 'apostate' world, to which we contribute, has mushroomed in the last 10 years in: numbers, public profile, influence on the WTs policies (and in JWs awareness), and in all areas of knowledge about the WT. This increase of knowledge in history, doctrine, science, social issues (paedophilia etc) has come through a few high profile writers. I won’t list them (for fear of missing some out). But it seems to me they have provided focus and depth to the community, and still do. But the community as a whole has contributed far more. As well as having supported and motivated the scholars, it has been the wide safety net into which rejected JWs have jumped.

    I would love to hear from the first Internet 'Apostates'. What was it like in the early 1990s online? How have things changed?

    So what about the accusation that we are wasting our time, and not achieving anything here. Well, to some extent, everything we post is stored and can be reused, everything gets read and thought about. Also, although we have overtaken the WTS in certain ways, I don’t see this as a reason to quit, (i.e. 'I know XYZ doctrines are wrong, so why bother thinking about JWs ever again'). Why not? Because WE are learning as a community as well as individually. While the individuals may come and go, they each leave some mark on the community, which remains and thrives.

    I'm sure Simon won't mind me saying, but keep posting here for as long as you have something to say, leave whenever you want, and come back anytime you like - you're always welcome. The community is a direct product of the Watchtower Society, and it will last at least as long.

    Philo

  • Roamingfeline
    Roamingfeline

    I think most of us stay within the bounds of the Ex-JW community for several reasons. Even though alot of us "old-timers" are past alot of our JW issues, we still feel a camaradarie with those who have been there, done that.

    Also, we like to be around to help others who are now in the shoes where we once stood: Doubting, still thinking it's the "truth", but also thinking we aren't good enough for it or Jah. Thinking we're the pimple on the butt of the Organization, and just starting to find out that we're not wrong, THEY are.

    That is why we're still here. To socialize with those who know where we came from, and to help others when they need it.

    RCat

  • You Know
    You Know

    From my observation of the development of the on-line apostate movement over the last 5 years or so, there has been a gradual move into more and more ungodliness, as of course the Scriptures foretell. One verse that comes to mind is the verse that foretells that "wicked men an imposters will advance from bad to worse, misleading and being misled." That "advancement" is readily observable. I recall a few years back, a lot of the focus was on how to go about "reforming" the Society, and a lot of well-meaning ones, who perhaps had experienced difficulties and doubts, were lured into that trap. Gradually, though, apostates have left off the idea of "reforming" the Wt and have come to more resemble a torch-carrying. pitchfork-weilding. Frankenstein mob storming the Watchtower castle. / You Know

  • JT
    JT

    YK says:

    Gradually, though, apostates have left off the idea of "reforming" the Wt

    #######

    i will agree with you 110% when i came here i too felt that if a Tweaks her and tweaks there were done the wt would be just fine,

    the problem is for many of us we were willing to ask the hard questions and the answers that we got back we didn't like

    for me it all boiled down to this:

    the wt claims to speak for god- his mouth pc be it thru meetings, tracts books talks boys in writing, gb , given ones you name it

    and the message is simply if you don't accept our explanation of the bible- you will die

    bottom line

    james

  • Simon
    Simon

    I agree with philo

    I'm sure Simon won't mind me saying, but keep posting here for as long as you have something to say, leave whenever you want, and come back anytime you like - you're always welcome. The community is a direct product of the Watchtower Society, and it will last at least as long.


    I'm sure for many people this place will just be a stage in their lives that they eventually move on from. Others are happy to stay a bit longer and help by sharing their experiences etc...

    Either way, hopefully, there will be something and someone here for them when they need it.

  • You Know
    You Know
    i will agree with you 110% when i came here i too felt that if a Tweaks her and tweaks there were done the wt would be just fine

    How wrong you were! There is so much that needs to be corected and reformed that only Jehovah will be able to perform the task, which of course he promises to do in his own way and time.

    and the message is simply if you don't accept our explanation of the bible- you will die

    That is a bit of a distortion of the actual truth. Jehovah is the expert on this issues. What he said exactly is this: "Uless you people have faith, you will not be of long duration." The Bible actually has answers to your questions but you would rather use the Watchtower's defciencies as a pretext for accusing them rather than find any sort of explanation from Jehovah's word why things are the way they are. Your preference is to lie on your back whining about how the Watchtower stumbled you rather than to fight for your faith. You are, or were, a mere Dub Watchtowerite that had no real insight or faith in Jehovah and have therefore paid the price of having the structure of your cardboard shanty-like faith incinerated in the flames of doubt. As Jude said of the accursed children: "Too bad for them." / You Know

  • philo
    philo

    You Know,

    :there has been a gradual move into more and more ungodliness

    As an ex-pioneer, I remember this sort of viewpoint being very popular among the over 60s. So much so, that we used to switch to an 'old fogey' introduction when we got a whiff of geraniums in the porchway. "When I was young, people did what they were told, you could leave your front door open, bath in a tin bath in the street, and napalm the Vietnamese". Is it indiscreet to ask how old you are, YK?

    I don't doubt that, objectively, there has been a shift of the sort you describe, unfortunately for you, there is no such thing as objective morality - it just keeps changing to meet social needs.

    :Gradually, though, apostates have left off the idea of "reforming" the WT and have come to more resemble a torch-carrying. pitchfork-weilding. Frankenstein mob storming the Watchtower castle.

    Well, in the two years of my association, I have also moved from wanting reform, to wanting demolition of the Org. Why? In my case, because I have come to realize how thick a skin, how utterly insensitive, the WT leadership is. They have made virtues of their ignorance, blindness, and insensitivity. No wonder they have unwittingly enlisted the army of their own destruction.

    philo

  • AlanF
    AlanF

    Well, Philo, there's a lot that can be said about the development of JW criticism on the Internet. I can tell you about some things from my own view, but that's only a small part of the whole. As with every new technology and communication medium, things have rapidly evolved.

    I got my start on the Net back in 1992, when the Web was only a gleam in the eye of a CERN physicist. Back then the discussion forums were on Usenet News, which still exists today and is massive. At that time most Usenet forums were read with linear readers based on Unix systems, so when you read "News" you had to be prepared to save material you were interested in. Once read, a news item could be reread only if you saved its identifier. Since then a lot of graphics-based user interfaces have made reading Usenet much easier.

    About the middle of 1992 I had finished up a couple of large essays on the Society's wrong views about Noah's Flood and Creation/Evolution (see http://www.geocities.com/osarsif/index2.htm for the latest) and was sitting at my desk at work wondering what to do next, when a co-worker came by and told me about some interesting news items on Usenet. I hadn't used this medium before, so it was all new to me. He told me about some discussions going on about JWs (we had discussed JW issues before) and said that it was very entertaining. Seems that on the newsgroup talk.origins, the Society's 1985 Creation book was being dissected. Having just completed such a dissection myself, I became involved in the discussions. I got acquainted with various JW defenders and with critics. Of course, the JW defenders were just as ineffective at defending their teachings as they are today. It was particularly entertaining to see an accredited scientist bring various facts to bear that the JWs could only end up sputtering about and then ignoring.

    I also got on other Usenet groups, such as talk.religion.misc, sci.skeptic, soc.religion.christian and a few others. Often topics bearing on JWs or JW false ideas would come up. But talk.origins taught me more than any other group. I gradually realized that virtually everything I had been taught as a JW about creation/evolution, and much that they taught about science, was tainted. Until you learn a topic thoroughly, you have no idea how much you didn't know. Eventually I wrote many posts, short and long, for this group. Some are still in the talk.origins archives.

    One of the more influential groups on today's JW-critical websites, I think, was talk.religion.misc. This was a free-for-all forum where all kinds of religious discussions took place. A loose group of JW defenders and another of JW critics was usually present, whacking away at each other. By late 1993 I had posted many, many long dissections of JW teachings and become familiar (and actually somewhat friendly) with some of the JW defenders. About that time I met the lady who is now my wife, on the Net.

    A few months into 1994 a critic posted some information about a newly released Canadian video called "Children of Jehovah". It showed the massive hurt that disfellowshipping did to young people, and simply by presenting the robotic responses of a few JW children, showed how deeply the cult mentality affected even young children. Discussions about this video led to a number of JW critics becoming very friendly offline as well as online.

    Around the beginning of 1994 JanH was still a JW and he was a vocal defender. We got involved in many online and offline discussions. I sent him massive emails containing discussions of JW history and the infamous Creation book. By the fall of 1994 he realized the truth about "the Truth" and, to my astonishment, told me that he was quitting the JWs. That later led to his and his wife's being forcibly disassociated. Jan got in touch with the vocal and well-known Norwegian critics Kent Steinhaug and Norman Hovland. Jan started his own JW-critical webpage and so did Kent, sometime in 1995 I believe. It was somewhere around this time, too, that Randy Watters started a website.

    During this time we had discussions with another man who was among the most reasonable JW defenders. By early 1995 he realized that something was very wrong in La-La-Land, and he tried to get some hard questions about JW chronology answered through his elders. They wrote the Society, but it became painfully evident that the answers given were nonsense. About this time the man, partly for fun, partly to get web experience, started up a discussion board called "Associated Jehovah's Witnesses for Reform" (AJWR). This lasted about a year, and attracted many JWs. I didn't have the appropriate computer facilities at home or work, and never took part in that board. Some of these JWs took a cue from this and started up H2O in early 1996, largely modeled on the "reform" theme.

    During these years I participated heavily in an email-based discussion group called "Jesus-Witnesses". This was something of a misnomer because it was basically a JW-critical email list, but once named, it stuck. The ideas was "Jesus' " as opposed to "Jehovah's" witnesses. There were a lot of heavy discussions on this list, and I feel that it honed my debating skills, especially with the Fundies who eventually overwhelmed the list by sheer numbers.

    About the end of summer 1996, I was contacted by a woman who had been a JW and who, because of discussions on the fledgling H2O, had quit the religion. She told me about the board, and so I joined and began posting. At that point I dropped out of the Jesus-Witnesses list and ceased participating in the Usenet discussions. It became evident that web-based discussion groups were the way to go. Many current JW-critical websites were started around this time.

    Most JW critics realize that trying to reform the JW religion is as useless as trying to reform a child molester -- they like doing what they do and without outside force they ain't gonna change. Some JWs have realized that something is very wrong with their religion, but for very understandable reasons want to stick with it. So they've held out the hope of reform. I think that many still do, but others have realized that without outside intervention nothing will change.

    Many JW critics, including myself, have a hard time explaining just why we still spend so much time dealing with JW issues. I can only say that for me, it's a combination of concern for the abused JW community, and moral outrage that ignorant, unethical men such as lead the Watchtower religion continue to do so with impunity. However, I have every reason to believe that that is about to change. The adverse publicity from the public exposure of the failure of JW leaders in the area of child molestation will force big changes, I think. It is that kind of publicity that most critics have been working towards, and so I certainly think that our efforts have been well worth the effort.

    Each person who contributes builds on that which has gone before. After I did my own independent research and found out how badly the Society has misrepresented science-related things, I accumulated books from various critics and I got in touch personally with many of the authors. In further writings I've used some of their material and contributed my own research. Hundreds of critical website owners have done the same, continually building on the research of earlier writers. A solid body of criticisms have emerged, which JWs are completely unable refute.

    I think that some of the best contributors to understanding Jehovah's Witness failings over the years have been William Cetnar, Edmund Gruss, Duane Magnani, Raymond Franz, James Penton, Carl Olof Jonsson, Gary & Heather Botting, and Randy Watters. These people have contributed more to my understanding of how JWs work and how much of a cult they really are than anyone else I can think of. Their writings have been the foundation for much of what appears on today's websites. Of course, hundreds of others have contributed, and I continue to learn from books and online presentations.

    I hope this thumbnail personal sketch gives you a little insight into the things you inquired about.

    AlanF

  • Mommie Dark
    Mommie Dark

    Sideshow Bob sez:"Gradually, though, apostates have left off the idea of "reforming" the Wt and have come to more resemble a torch-carrying. pitchfork-weilding. Frankenstein mob storming the Watchtower castle."

    Even your analogies in your defense suck. Frankenstein LIVED in the castle. He made the monster there. The Watchtower is the source of the evil; the irate townspeople are ridding the community of a heinous evil when they storm the castle.

    But You Know that,don't you?

  • philo
    philo

    Alan,
    I had not hoped for such a helpful response as that, thank you. It's duly filed. I don't suppose you fell in love with that ex-JW woman and married her, and had kids, and live happily ever after?

    :I think that some of the best contributors to understanding Jehovah's Witness failings over the years have been William Cetnar, Edmund Gruss, Duane Magnani, Raymond Franz, James Penton, Carl Olof Jonsson, Gary & Heather Botting, and Randy Watters

    A snippet from a Twatcrower…

    10 What a catalogue of faultfinders! Obviously they had nothing better to do with their talents than to pick at the sores of a well-meaning body of true Christians, JWs. Doubtless, they lacked a place to shine among the honest, humble and hard working. It seems they needed to gather followers away, to justify their shaky reasonings. Certainly, such ones were too proud, and will inevitably be crushed in God's winepress in a very little while. Indubitably, God sees them as already dead, so mature Christians will, affirmatively, positively, and categorically hate them, their spawn and all their works (see footnote*[not to be read aloud at the WT study])

    footnote* When questioned about this, such mature ones will weigh carefully the impression that could be given, and not use such words as hate ,spawn, flesh, torture, scum, or bastards. Less mature ones will decline questions.

    philo

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