The Holy Spirit

by Leolaia 22 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    One of the questions which came to mind when reading this very interesting post is the role of angelology in the development of the Holy Spirit doctrine. After all, angels are "spirits" as well (Psalm 104). And the Spirit of Truth vs. Spirit of Error in Qumran doctrine may well be described as a kind of angelo-demonology.

    As I pointed out in my "Son of God" thread, angelology had an important part in that concept: Philo's "Son of God" is Wisdom, Logos, and firstborn Angel. However, I was reading again his De Gigantibus tractate and found nothing similar: the Spirit, although also identified to Wisdom, is clearly distinguished from the "angels" (which would rather be assimilated to "souls"). As if there was something in the word "spirit" that resists personification.

    In early Christian doctrine (or imagination), the personified Wisdom was actually split into (1) a personal Son of God and (2) an impersonal Spirit; the two were sometimes identified (as Leolaia pointed) and sometimes distinguished in the texts. The "personality" equally and artificially ascribed to both of them in later Trinitarian doctrine doesn't blot this difference out. BTW, reviewing this development reminds me I'm not a Christian anymore, for I would hardly call that a "progress"...

  • True North
    True North

    Leolaia,

    Thanks for the followup on the Rodney Dangerfield thread; very interesting stuff. And boy, all those feminine pronouns and allusions: are you suggesting that one member of the Trinity could be viewed as being female?

  • got my forty homey?
    got my forty homey?

    The Holy Spirit thing has always had me confused:

    1. With the Baptists and Pentocostals it makes you jump up and down like a Mexican Low Rider.

    2. With the Catholics its part of two other beings?

    3. With the JW's it makes decisions as to who is going to get the next promotion, elder,ms,mic handler.

    4. In the bible its a bird that lands of Jesus head. What kind of bird? A seagull!!!?

    What a bunch of foolishness.

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    Narkissos.....About the role of angelology, also note the Gospel of the Hebrews, fr. 1 which claims that "the good Father summoned a mighty power in heaven, which was called Michael, and entrusted Christ to the care thereof. And the power came into the world and it was called Mary, and Christ was in her womb seven months". Thus some Jewish-Christians viewed the Virgin Mary as the incarnation (or earthly life) of the archangel Michael. Another interesting tidbit is the baptism of Jesus in the Gospels, which describe the descent of the "Spirit" (Mark 1:9-10), the "Spirit of God" (Matthew 3:13-17), the "Holy Spirit" (Luke 3:21-22; John 1:29-34) in the form of a dove. After the descent of the Spirit, a voice in heaven declares "This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased". But what is being referred to -- the Holy Spirit in the form of a dove, or Jesus? This ambiguity may have contributed also to an identification of the Son with the Spirit. The original account in Mark said that the Spirit "descended on him," Luke says the same thing, Matthew similarly says that the Spirit "alighted on him," John says that the Spirit descended and then "remained on him," but the Gospel of the Ebionites distinctively says that the Spirit "descended and entered into him". This specificity, based in an adoptionist view of Jesus becoming divine at his baptism, would suggest that the one being declared the Son was both Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

    There is some more stuff I forgot to mention from the synoptic gospels that identify Jesus with heavenly Wisdom. Matthew 8:20/Q 9:58 says: "Foxes have holes and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head". This saying recalls the notion of Wisdom having no place to dwell until God assigns her a new place (cf. Sirach 24:6-7; 1 Enoch 42:2). In Proverbs 8:17, Wisdom says that "those who seek me diligently find me" and Wisdom 6:12 claims that Wisdom "is found by those who seek her," and all this recalls Matthew 7:7/Q 11:9-13 where Jesus says "Ask, and it will be given to you; seek and you will find," and John 1:41, 45; 7:33-34; 8:21-22; 13:13; 20:15 repeatedly designates Jesus as the one people are seeking and finding. Even more striking is the following parallel:

    Proverbs 1:24-28: "Wisdom calls aloud in the street, she raises her voice in the public squares; at the head of the noisy streets she cries out, in the gateways of the city she makes her speech: 'How long will you simple ones love your simple ways? How long will mockers delight in mockery and fools hate knowledge? If you had responded to my rebuke, I would have poured out my heart to you and made my thoughts known to you. But since you rejected me when I called and no one gave heed when I stretched out my hand, since you ignored all my advice and would not accept my rebuke, I in turn will laugh at your disaster; I will mock when calamity overtakes you, when calamity overtakes you like a storm, when disaster sweeps over you like a whirlwind, when distress and trouble overwhelm you. Then they will call to me but I will not answer; they will look for me but will not find me.' "

    Matthew 11:16-19/Q 7:31-2: "To what, then, can I compare the people of this generation? What are they like? They are like children sitting in the marketplace and calling out to each other: 'We played the flute for you, and you did not dance; we sang a dirge, and you did not cry'. For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine, and you say, 'He has a demon. 'The Son of Man came eating and drinking,' and you say, 'Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners.' But Wisdom is proved right by all her children".

    John 7:33-34: "Still a short time I shall be with you, and I am going to the one who sent me. You will seek me and not find me, and where I am you cannot come".

    Matthew again uses feminine imagery (e.g. "her children") to link Jesus with Wisdom. Aside from a several verbal parallels, there is also a commonality of theme; Wisdom is being rejected just as the Son of Man is being rejected. Compare also Matthew 12:42/Q 11:31: "The Queen of the South will rise at the judgment with the men of this generation and condemn them; for she came from the ends of the earth to listen to Solomon's wisdom, and now someone greater than Solomon is here". Solomon's wisdom was in Jewish legend the ultimate in human wisdom; the one greater in wisdom than Solomon would naturally be Wisdom herself. And here are more allusions in the passage from Colossians:

    Wisdom 1:6-7, 14; 7:26, 9:1: "Wisdom is a spirit, a friend to man....The spirit of the Lord indeed fills the whole world, and she holds all things together and knows every word that is said...For he created all things that they might exist, the created things of the world to have health in them....She is a reflection of the eternal light, untarnished mirror of God's active power, image of his goodness....God of our ancestors, Lord of mercy, who by your Word have made all things, and in your Wisdom have fitted man".

    Colossians 1:15-18: "Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him. And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence."

    I'm sure there are many other examples.

  • JCanon
    JCanon

    Hi Leolaia, this is a very interesting topic and somewhat complex.

    In general, Satan is associated with wisdom and the "Tree of Knowledge" whereas Michael/Jesus in the garden was associated with the Tree of Life.

    Christ and pre-Satan were like husband and wife and thus Satan is called the "woman" at Genesis 3:15 who would fight against Micahel and his seed. Also the heavenly beauty of Satan is a reflection of the "wisdom" but a special kind of wisdom lending more to "Sosphistication" and elegance, refinement, cultural finesse, etc.

    Christ, though, is still considered to be personified by "wisdom" and thus is not a equal counterpart to Satan but superior. This is demonstrated by the LXX which assigns to Satan (and this is part of the key to the trinity and the sacred correction of 3) NINE stones, but to Jesus, represented by the high priest, 12 stones. Jesus/Michael have the same identical stones as Satan, only he has three more.

    In the "mysteries" and in cryptic representation, thus, when divided by 3, 12 has four sides, this makes up the four directions and is reflected in the 12 tribes of Israel with the cubical 144,000 and three gates on each "side". Likewise reflective of Christ would be the SQUARE and the CUBE.

    Correspondingly, 9 stones, missing one side, would form the TRIANGLE and the PYRAMID. Thus the PYRAMID, triangles and the number three become sacred to the goddess form of Satan, the triangle ofen used to emphasize the pubic triangle of the woman goddesses such as Ashera.

    As well, reflective of Satan as the covering cherub being called a "pattern" is imitated by Adam and Eve. That is, Adam was reflective of Christ, Eve reflective of Satan. Adam associated with the life and the tree of life because the man gives life, he fertilizes the egg. Eve, his "helper" the mother, is the one with the knowledge and wisdom and refinement. But this also reflected two other general characteristics observed in anthropology, that being the contrast between the black man compared to the white. Adam was black and Asiatic with the dominant genes, emotional and sexual, strong and protective. His skin was dark like the rich soil from which he was made. Eve, though, his compliment was just the opposite genetically, fair, blone, blue-eyed and beautiful tot he extreme. But looking at Eve's white skin, knowing she would be bearing children of color, you can understand better why Adam would say "you will become the mother of everyone living", something that a black man would reflect on seeing her fair skin.

    In the general ethnic breakdown, the differences of focus for the two opposites, let's say the African man and the very fair Caucasian man, say typical of Scandinavia, sometimes compares one with being more PHYSICAL and one more MENTAL. Thus "mind over matter" became a theme of the Mysteries at various levels, such as Mithraism which sought to "change" the man through various levels of increased mental power until he became "a god" the original promise of Satan of what knowledge can do. Satan told Eve, as "Lilith" thus likely in a female voice: "You will have KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND BAD and you will BECOME LIKE GOD."

    In other cultural comparison, thus the contest and preferences were between the black man and the white man, the shepherd and the farmer, and the woman had to choose. The white woman, that is.

    This is a recurring cultural theme for Western culture and seen in folklore most pertinently in stories of the Beauty and the Beast. The Beast being the virility of man, often associated with the black man who is strong and virile and sexual, maybe oversexual, but without moral character or "sophistication" or great knowledge. That in contrast with the white man, who has worldly interests, fascinated by ideas and concepts, a builder, a farmer, etc. Show a white man a mountain and he will want to climb it, show him the moon and he will want to go there.

    This is why the move "Gone With the Wind" is such a classic. It's an adaptation of the choice facing the white woman and reflects what happened in Eden regarding a curse. That curse was that a woman would "crave her husband". That is, God increased her sexuality needs, perhaps to curb her independence a bit because of what she did in the garden of Eden, not respecting her husband or consulting him before she decided for herself to partake and then invite him.

    At any rate, in "Gone with the Wind" of course, Rhett Butler is the adaptation of the black man. A man who is sexually strong and active, hanging out with whores and what not. Only he is a "combination" of what the white woman wants. He's sufficiently an a "beast" in bed, knowing how to be romantic with women, but otherwise, is a successful man in the culture. This is the "prince" concept of the beast. That is, the woman wants BOTH. She wants the beast in bed but the Prince and the castle the rest of the time. Unfortunately both don't always come int he same package.

    But getting back to Wisdom. The goddesses which Satan based upon her own attributes were beautiful and offered KNOWLEDGE to her followers which allowed them to "rise above" their "animal instincts" and become more intellectual which brought wealth. Thus SOPHIA the goddess of sophistication. And we find the TREE GODDESS Isis giving breast milk to her followers. This relates to her personification not to the "tree of life" but to the "tree of knowledge" in Eden.

    So in general, "Wisdom" is more often specifically associated with Satan though Christ himself is also considered a personification of "wisdom" because he is the "word" the master craftsman by God's side.

    I don't know exactly how it all got imput, but when God said "Let us make man in OUR IMAGE...male and female" I believe he was including, in particular, pre-Satan, then Christ's wife, with some of the more feminine qualities concentrated in her.

    DOMESTICATED SIMPLICITY: If you think in terms of a house, and man and wife, it's easy to understand the type of "wisdom" Satan personifies. It's a wisdom of sophistication. Imagine a successful, wealthy man of the world who, of course, must have the ultimate "dinner party." He relies upon his wife to tend to the details, organize, and make the event "elegant". He's not particularly "elegant" per se, but she is the tone and standard for cultural sophistication. She knows how to arrange the flowers. She's gone to ballet class to learn how to walk, how to sit, how to be a thing of beauty, etc.

    This is not the same kind of "wisdom" that Christ has, which is more spiritual, more substance than surface.

    Thus after Satan rebelled, Christ and god considered her more of a CARTOON character than anything. Beautiful but deadly.

    Finally, in the aspiration to corrupt truth and to promote confusion and insinuate her personal reference in everything possible, including the introduction of the Trinity doctrine into Christianity within 300 years of Christ, this concept of Holy Spirit, the Shekinah, fit quite well as the third counterpart to the Biblical Trinity.

    But note, there is a legitimate Biblical TRINITY and Satan was originally part of it. Only it was not all three are one and equal. It was made of of the Ark of the Covenant, representing God's positioning on Holy Mount Zion, and the two "covering cherubs" two angels whose wings covered the Ark, being depicted as a cherub and a "palm tree", representing Christ/Michael and Satan. Thus the three of them, indeed, were a trinity of sorts. But this was NOT "holy spirit".

    Once Satan is kicked off of Mount Zion by Christ, Christ gets divorced and ends up marrying a new wife, "New Jerusalem" who is made up of humanity, some of the adopted children of Adam! This is the BRIDE OF CHRIST.

    So in that sense, being God's "temple" they take the place of Satan in many ways and thus the Biblical "trinity" is really God, Christ and the Church. They are the special beings. But they are not the same "god" and are not equal.

    Thus it's an interesting twist that "Wisdom" associated with the goddess, now substituted by Holy Spirit, was actually part of the original implied Biblical Trinity. That is, God, Christ and Satan, later to be God, Christ and the Church. Problem is, linking Holy Spirit with Wisdom is not a direct call and thus it is a corrupted doctrine. But it kind of fits because it's the third part represented in Christian culture, i.e. "In the name of God, the Son and the Holy Spirit". But in this trinity, wisdom personified, as you note, is Jesus. He is now the oen giving out truth and getting people to turn around, preaching in the broadways.

    Thus, at the second coming we note that some, after Jesus has gotten up and closed the door will claim that he "taught in our broadways"... Luke 13:26 "Then you will start saying, 'We ate and drank in front of you, and you taught in our broad ways." This fulfills "Wisdom seeking out the foolish ones, trying to give them knowledge.

    So it's an understood substitute but a poor match. For Catholics, of course, the Trinity is better The Father, Christ and Mary. Mary is easily the adaptation of the Mother Goddess concept, the Virgin Mother (VIRGO). But that would mean connecting Mary with "holy spirit" and "wisdom" and that's not easily done.

    Thus I find it rather interesting that as you pointed out, the feminine concept of "wisdom" whether Christ or Satan, but particularly Satan makes a better member of the Biblical trinity as the wife of Jesus, his original partner and part of the original trinity, but that's not the relationship of Christ, God and the Holy Spirit. The Christian trinity of God, Christ and Holy Spirit don't reference Satan's position in the original trinity since it's hard to make Mary, the Madonna, and thus representative of Satan in a paganized way, as Holy Spirit. It doesn't work. And thus the trinity doctrine doesn't work. The Catholic Trinity really is the Father, Mary and Jesus; those are the gods they worship, primarily Mary though. The Holy Spirit is left out. But even in the eventual trinity, with the Father, the Son and the Church, Holy Spirit is still a binding force shared by them all, and not a part of this union between God, his son and a few selected redeemed children of Adam.

    Thus in the final analysis, "wisdom" not well connected with Holy Spirit and shared by Christ and Satan is just a general referenc both share, with Christ being superior to Satan, even in wisdom, though Satan elevates knowledge and the possesion of knowledge to a high level for the transformation of man, particularly the "intellectual man" to achieve great things like a god.

    So in a way it's kind of sad, sort of. That's because during the millennium and in the world to come, under Christ, a utopia and PARADISE, PARADISE is similar to the Bohemian lifestyle. Living in the tropics with very little. "Every man under his own vine and fig tree" kind of situation. Small communities. Obviously with everyone being EQUAL there will be no servant class or working class under a wealthy lord class, often achieved by intellectual expertise.

    Thus it is of note that Satan at the end of the millennium reinspires "Gog of Magog" that is the primarily white children of Magog the son of Japeth. They rebel against Christ. But it's almost understandable why they would because probably they would want to aspire to achieve the ultimate possibilities that they can see and dream of, but that requires a more "capitalistic" society. You know, you canhave all the money in the world to build a skyscraper but unless you have lots of machines to do it, who are you going to get to build it? When everybody is basically a beach bum and a surfer.

    So that's the ultimate life God has planned for mankind, to oversimply, the life in PARADISE, being the ultimate surfer guy, enjoying nature every day and praising God for every wave he lavishes upon you like a big hug. No big buildings. No great pyramids to the sky like ancient Babylon which requires the organization of man.

    Thus the rebellion of Gog of Magog in the end, against a perfect and utopian but rather "communistic" world, must be out of frustration. The frustration shown to them by Satan by tapping into "what could be"-- the temptation to do great things and become great, maybe? Anyway, "Gog of Magog" is the Biblical reference to Nazism and those associated ideas, the deification of the intellectuality over the emotional aspects of man's nature. Everyone has to balance the two.

    Still, an interesting analysis as usual, Leolaia, but it doesn't quite work out in a straight line of progression. As I've said, some things are just common and used by various cultures. The CIRCLE is used by everybody, does that mean they were all influenced by one culture who invented it? No.

    Maybe for this discussion one should distinguish "Knowledge" from "Wisdom". There is a difference. You can have knowledge, but not wisdom. You can have the knowledgeable skills to build a high rise but perhaps not the wisdom of where to build it, etc. Actually, that seems like splitting hairs even to me.

    Later...

    JC

  • Tyre
  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete

    Bump, hoping a few newer posters would appreciate this thread. Minus the post by our former resident messaiah JCannon.

  • suavojr
    suavojr

    Awesome read for any newbie

  • Vanderhoven7
    Vanderhoven7

    .....and oldbie

  • Diogenesister
    Diogenesister

    From Leolaia - "wisdom" personified, to JCanon....er, not?

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