It must be the end-of-the-mont-scramble to get time in. I just got off the phone with a gentleman who, talking approx 1000 words per minute, so that I could almost not understand what he said, identified himself as "Navin", and wanted to "share a scripture with me". He clearly did NOT know who I am or my history, or my website hobby. I think he was just making cold calls. I live in a very secure building, so they have to do "telephone witnessing". (BTW, this is the first time ever I've had them call me, in over 6+ yrs in this building... so much for reaching everyone in the territory once per year!). Naturally, the CALLER-ID was blocked; seeing this I assummed it would be a salesman, and I was right. A Watchtower salesman, that is.
Now, keep in mind the context: I spent part of doay today mailing that UN letter to my Mom. I even went accros town so I could photocopy the Robert Muller book at the library, to include with the package. At this point I was quietly daydreaming about how nice the world will be once we are rid of that corporation known as Watchtower. So I thought I was dreaming when the guy on the phone he asked if he could "share a scripture with me". Taken aback (I actually asked him to repeat the question) and confused, I said "Okaaayyy"
[Note: this is not an exact transcript. I didn't record the call (damn), but I will the next time! I've tried to recall and document the fun bits and pieces; some might be missing or out of order.]
Navin reads Rev 21:4 (wipe out every tear, former things passed like a kidney stone, yada yada yada) and starts into "isn't this a wonder promise from our god Jehovah?"
And I'm thinking that question if so fully loaded at so many levels I don't know where to start. I decide to go with something like "Well, it sounds nice, but that's from Revelation, and isn't Revelation supposed to be SIGNS and SYMBOLS and things that should not be taken literally?"
Navin comes back with "well we know the bible is written by Jehovah for mankind and that is why we can trust [blah blah blah]". (A little presumptuous on his part, for all he knowns I'm Hindu. But I decide to play along.)
"Um Navin? I didn't say I don't trust the bible, I asked about whether we can take Revelation literally. I mean (I'm playing dumb here and don't want to scare him off too soon) doesn't Revelation say something about "BOWLS" that will be poured out? Are they actual bowls or do they symbolize something?"
At some point (maybe here, I foget exactly) he must have determined I am a "person of interest" so he repeated his name and re-asked me for mine (I guess he didn't write it down the first time, what poor salesmanship! They should have a Service Meeting about this, tsk tsk tsk). Only at this point he identifies himself as "one of Jehovah's Witnesses" and I'm thinking, but didn't say, "really? I thought you were several of Jehovah's Witness, thanks for clarifying that you are only one person".
I forget what tangent he went on, but I brought him back and asked him "Yeah, but the bowls, literal, or sybolic?"
He said they are symbolic. Then goes of on some rant about other symbols in Revelation, and (stupidly) mentions 144,000 as part of this diatribe.
I asked "OK, so the bowls are symbolic, right? [he agreed] And the 144,000 number, that's symbolic too?"
"NNNNNNNNNooooooooooo.... it's an actual number because... [confused rationale forgotten by me, sorry gang!]"
"OK, but if memory serves, that scripture about 144,000, which you say is to be taken literally, is both preceded by and also followed by stuff that you say is to be taken symbolically. It seems to me very convenient they way you jump around and pick and choose what is literal and what is symbolic."
"Yes but we JWs are bible students and have studied the bible carefully, so we know [blah blah blah]..." and I'm thinking "oh, so that's the Presnt Truth, huh? For now anyways, right? Until Watchtower changes it..." but I didn't want to play my cards just yet!!!
"Wow, you sure know a lot about this, are you a Christian?"
"No, I'm not, but I have studied a number of religions over the years, including Jehovahs Witnesses."
"Oh, well, I could have this fine book about Revelation delivered to your door"
"I think I already have it in my library, from years ago." I had to bite my lip to avoid saying "and it came in real handy when I scanned some of the pictures from that rag into my website"
"Oh, good!"
At some point I remembered what I learned from Steve Hassan's book "Combatting Cult Mind Control" and asked Navin about himself, how long he'd been a JW, etc. to try and see where he's coming from and remind him of his pre-cult days.
"Oh, I'm from Guyana; I've only been baptized as a JW for one year. Yeah, before that I was in the world, with many girlfriends, [blah blah blah making himself sound like some bad gangster], etc." [Note to self: call my MP and ask him why Immigration Canada is letting such bad, bad, Guyanese like Navin into our peaceful country. By his self-description, Navin was pretty messed up!!!] (I made a mental note of his past so I could later remind him of how good his pre-cult life was... I didn't get the chance, but I'll save it for next time... if there is a next time). I notice he used the phrase "in the world". In fact, after the first few minutes, he began using all of the "special words" or "loaded vocabulary" unique to this cult. The only way I could understand what he was saying was because of my JW past. I truly appreciate how overwhelming it can be for non-JWs to attempt to talk to or rescue JWs.
At some point he starts the usual crap about how bad are the times we are living in.
"Hold on, I don't agree with that at all. In fact I recently heard that the average life span in year 1900 was ~45 yrs. Today it is ~85 yrs. You, like all of the other end times groups (here I was planting a seed that his belief system is not unique) always say how bad things are. But if you look a the history of man, you can see how this is the best time ever! More people have adequate, even surplus nutrition; less people die of war and disease. [etc. etc.]"
"Oh yes, that is beacuse man has had so many advances from Science in recent years." At this point I'm thinking Yes, dumb-dumb, you just made my point, now connect the dots to see how this doesn't fit your sky-is-falling attitude! "But you know, the scriptures say it does not belong to man who is walking even to direct his step"
I tried to explain how pleased I am that not everyone takes that "God is in control so I don't have to worry about improving the world" attitude, or else we wouldn't have the great life we enjoy today, and would instead be back in the Dark Ages, hungry, sick, etc.
We went back and forth for a bit more, mostly because everytime I made what I thought was a good point, he responded with something completely off-topic. I must say he was NOT very confrontational: he kept saying "Yes" and agreeing with me, even if what I was saying was clearly likely just one unconnected dot away from going against JW doctrine. Anyhow, finally he mentioned something about governments, and I led him out a bit more, (acting stupid... OK, I wasn't acting ) and had him remind me of the key word, NEUTRALITY, and then I saw my chance:
"Oh, Navin, you just reminded me of something. I saw this recently and couldn't believe it...." and gave him an Executive Overview of the UN thing; making sure that he agreed that UN=bad nasty, etc.. Then I tell him about the NGO association, and how I saw this on the UN website, but otherwise playing dumb and deliberately not using the JW loaded language which was starting to come back to me (scary! ).
He asked for the URL, so I gave him the step-by-step through UN.org so he could find it himself; he was wring down and repeating back to me what to click on , etc.. Finally, when we got to the document, I offered to read it, and he agreed, although he cut me off after the 3rd paragraph.
"OK, ok, ok, ok. I see where you are going with this" (and I'm thinking, Navin, pal, you don't have a clue where I'm going to take you with this!) "Oh, we use the UN often, we quote their data in our magazines many times."
He did not mention library card, but just in case I preempted him: "Well, that's good, but you don't have to be officially associated as NGO to get access to the UN library. In fact, I think there is a library here in [our town] which is affiliated with the UN and you or I can can get any UN library information necessary. Using UN information in your magazines would not require NGO association." (I really should have added, "After all, the UN is the wild beast, and we all know it's being humped by a whore, don't we" but that would have raised suspicion).
Pretty soon he comes up with "There are may opposers and persecutors who say bad things about us that are not true" and "But you know, we have really been warned about the internet" and actually said something to the effect that the Society has warned us that it would be better if we just don't use it (btw, he already confirmed that he has internet at home when he asked for the URL, so this is kind of strange -- don't use it, but I have it at home -- non-sequitor, non-sequitor, illogical, illogical...).
"So are you saying this [UN NGO association] is not true?"
"Well, anyone can put anything on the internet"
"But only the UN can put things on UN.org. That's why I was so surprised by this! It looks pretty official. Are you saying that the UN is deliberately saying untrue things about JWs and Watchtower?"
"I don't know, let me check it out first."
"Good, because if the UN is saying bad and untrue things about the Watchtower, then you should let them [WT] know so they can get them [UN] to stop. OTOH, if this is true, then I find it very confusing and hypocritical. You mentioned NEUTRALITY; how can the WT do this? Don't they tell members to not even use the gym at the YMCA, for the same reason: NEUTRALITY?"
He seemed a bit hurried at this point (I swear could smell the fear, even over the phone... or maybe that was the smell of cognitive dissonance; they smell pretty similar!) and he quickly ended the conversation (or maybe he just noticed talking to me for 20 minutes completed his 10 hours, and he was done for the month!. Oh well, so much for bringing "refreshment to those thirsting for knowledge". Hey, I would have talked with him all night if I could, but instead I got "Yes, yes, these are all good questions. Let me check them out so I can get an answer for you" (I barely managed to NOT say: "you mean so you can have an elder tell you the correct, canned response for a naive newly baptized convert, don't you?.)
DAMN! I just realized I should have asked him for his home phone number. After all, he has mine. Oh well, next time..... if there is a next time. I propose that Navin will not call back; if he does it will be MONTHS from now and he will have "forgotten" our conversation and not have any of the answers he promised me. More likely, some cagey elder will figure out "Apostate Lives Here" (it's not hard, he has my number, he was lilely looking at the reverser directory so he has my name) and make sure Navin never again calls that nice man who asked all those intersting questions.
Damn again! I should have followed proper business & salesmanship protocol, and insisted we set a date/time for the follow-up call; just to make it harder for him to weasel out of it.
