by sandy 14 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
Do the Witnesses teach that God doesn't here a disfellowshipped person's prayers? If so what scriptures do they use to support such an idea?
Is there any scriptures in the 4 gospels, Matthew, Mark Luke or John, that the witnesses use to support disfellowshipping and shunning?
Is there any scriptures in the 4 gospels, Matthew, Mark Luke or John, that the witnesses use to support disfellowshipping and shunning?
Matthew 18:17 -- "If he does not listen even to the congregation, let him become to you just as a man of the nations and as a tax collector."
So the explanation is that the Jews had no dealings with people of other nations, and that they despised tax collectors.
The prayer thing is taught both ways and it also depends on the sin, minor sin or serious sin.
There are literally hundreds of quotes on the shunning doctrine. Here are a few that might answer a part of your questions.
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w87 7/15 p. 15 Prayers Require Works ***4 So it is necessary to live in harmony with our prayers. Is it essential to stress this fact today? Indeed it is, not only because of the situation in Christendom but also because of the situation of some of Jehovah?s dedicated people. Of the more than 3,000,000 publishers of the good news last year, upwards of 37,000 were disfellowshipped for conduct unbecoming a Christian. That amounts to a ratio of about one in 80. Quite likely, most of these individuals were praying at least now and then. But were they acting in harmony with their prayers? By no means! Even some elders who had been in the full-time service for decades were among those disciplined in one way or another. How sad! Truly, "Let him that thinks he is standing beware that he does not fall," that he does not act in a way that makes his prayers unacceptable to his Maker.?1 Corinthians 10:12.
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w01 10/1 pp. 16-17 How Can You Help a "Prodigal" Child? ***15 In restoring one?s relationship with Jehovah, prayer is a must. Of course, no one should "make request" concerning blatant sin that is clearly being practiced unrepentantly by any individual once associated with the Christian congregation. (1 John 5:16, 17; Jeremiah 7:16-20; Hebrews 10:26, 27) Yet, parents can ask Jehovah to give them wisdom to deal with the situation. (James 1:5) If a disfellowshipped youth gives evidence of repentance but does not have "freeness of speech toward God," the parents might pray that if God finds a basis for pardoning the child?s error, that His will be done. (1 John 3:21) Hearing these prayers should help the youth to see Jehovah as a merciful God.?Exodus 34:6, 7; James 5:16.
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w81 2/1 p. 31 Questions from Readers ***These words of Jesus follow his discussion of the procedure that should be followed if a servant of God has a major "fault" to take up with his brother. (Verses 15-17) This could lead to the charge being taken up by the "congregation" in that the matter would come before the responsible brothers in the congregation for review and judgment. If the charge was proved true and sufficiently gross, with the individual showing no repentance, the result would be that this one would be considered as "a man of the nations and as a tax collector." He would be disfellowshiped. All of this, of course, would require deliberations. And these deliberations are what Jesus had reference to in verses 18 to 20.
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w81 3/1 p. 31 Questions from Readers ***It is understood that when "fornication" on the part of a believing marriage mate comes to light, this should be brought to the attention of the body of elders in the congregation. (Matt. 19:9) If the guilty party does not do this, then the innocent mate would have a responsibility to report the wrongdoing in the interests of keeping Jehovah?s congregation clean. If there is genuine repentance on the part of the guilty one, such a person may be retained in the congregation, and this would be true even though the innocent mate might not choose to extend forgiveness. If there is no repentance, the guilty mate would be disfellowshiped, even though the innocent mate might choose to extend forgiveness and continue living with the disfellowshiped mate.
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w81 9/15 pp. 25-26 Disfellowshiping?How to View It ***27 But it is not wrong to be loyal to the righteous and just God of the Bible. He tells us that he will accept ?in his holy mountain? only those who walk faultlessly, practice righteousness and speak truth. (Ps. 15:1-5) If, though, a Christian were to throw in his lot with a wrongdoer who has been rejected by God and disfellowshiped, or has disassociated himself, that would be as much as saying ?I do not want a place in God?s holy mountain either.? If the elders saw him heading in that direction by regularly keeping company with a disfellowshiped person, they would lovingly and patiently try to help him to regain God?s view. (Matt. 18:18; Gal. 6:1) They would admonish him and, if necessary, ?reprove him with severity.? They want to help him remain ?in God?s holy mountain.? But if he will not cease to fellowship with the expelled person, he thus has made himself ?a sharer (supporting or participating) in the wicked works? and must be removed from the congregation, expelled.?Titus 1:13; Jude 22, 23; compare Numbers 16:26.
On Matt. 18:17
JW's might like to interpret this passage as shunning of transgressors, like Jews did tax collectors. But, it is not what Jesus did. He associated with sinners and tax collectors and did not ostracize them. (Matt. 9:11) So, I fail to see how this can mean what JWs say it does. Why would he advocate one thing and do another? Rather, treat transgressors as Jesus did tax collectors.
because the Bible contradicts itself.
"And as he sat at table in the house, behold, many tax collectors and sinners came and sat down with Jesus and his disciples. And when the Pharisees saw this, they said to his disciples, "Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?"
"And Levi made him a great feast in his house; and there was a large company of tax collectors and others sitting at table with them."
"Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector."
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"Now the tax collectors and sinners were all drawing near to hear him."
Doesn't sound like a lot of shunning going on there.
Matthew 18:17 -- "If he does not listen even to the congregation, let him become to you just as a man of the nations and as a tax collector."
Man of the nations and tax collector? Hmmmm, as already pointed out Jesus showed such ones love and respect. I do not see the reasoning or the scriptural support here for shunning.
I find it hard to believe, based on Jesus example, that if he were here on earth he would encourage or counsel his followers to shun me or anyone else because I am practicing sin.
Jesus showed people love and respect, he showed them the way to the kingdom. He didn't avoid them and not say a greeting to them. He sat down and shared a meal with them hoping to win them over.
In context this scripture was about forgiveness between individuals.
It is not about an oval table with 3 self-righteous elders trying to put the fear of God in him/her by threatening for not seeing things through their eyes.
In context this scripture was about forgiveness between individuals.Yes, I agree.
The disfellowship and exocommunication of Churches is mainly based on the belief that Jesus broke the bread only after Judas left the room.
From Matthew, Mark and Luke it seems Judas was present. In John 13:30, Judas left the room straight after Jesus gave him the morsel. However, the account of the breaking of the bread is not present in John. The problem lies in the translation of John 13:2, in KJV it reads "And Supper being ended, ..." and in NWT it reads "So while the evening meal was on going"
Did Jesus forgave Judas? Did Judas partake the Lord's Evening meal??
Danny's take on the Watchtower's shunning Dogma.
If my JW Kin and kids,have any contact with me.{like letting me know who is dead or alive}.They are indoctinated, that they would be,"justifying my ungodly lifestyle".
This above quote is their's.Guess what? It's also the same quote/rebutal from another cult.The Robert's group,aka "the Brethen". So,you see how the cults are all the same.
.Another cute catch phrase they use is,"...We cannot help another, out of the pit unless we get ourself's out of the pit first..."This self deprecatating,self repudiating cop out, is also know as the cult,"demand for purity'.
Demand for Purity: The world is depicted as black and white, with little room for making personal decisions based on a trained conscience. One's conduct is modeled after the ideology of the group, as taught in its literature. People and organizations are pictured as either good or evil, depending on their relationship to the cult. Universal tendencies of guilt and shame are used to control individuals, even after they leave. There is great difficulty in understanding the complexities of human morality, since everything is polarized and oversimplified. All things classified as evil are to be avoided, and purity is attainable through immersion into the cult's ideology.
Moreover, my adult JW family members have depicted and revilved me as 'apostate dung' to the little ones, who have never met me { 15 years now}. If they contridict now,their parents will look like liars.Sooo, it goes if mom and dad lied about uncle Danny.Then what else did they lie to us about..... The short answer,it was all a lie.
Watchtower leaders are,"control freaks with a mean streak".The arrogance of ruthless egotism and, Milieu Control "Milieu" is a French word meaning "surroundings; environment." Cults are able to control the environment around their recruits in a number of ways, but almost always using a form of isolation. Recruits can be physically separated from society, or they can be warned under threat of punishment to stay away from the world's educational media, especially when it might provoke critical thinking. Any books, movies or testimonies of ex-members of the group, or even anyone critical of the group in any way are to be avoided. Information is carefully kept on each recruit by the mother organization. All are watched, lest they fall behind or get too far ahead of the thinking of the organization. Because it appears that the organization knows so much about everything and everyone, they appear omniscient in the eyes of the recruits.
The 'flunky','ghouls for god'.Jehovah witness church elders create your disastrously dysfunctional problem in the FIRST place.with their politics,and cliques.Disfellowship,you for the problems that they initated.Then, like 'ghouls,' come up from behind and do a 'postmortem',as to why on earth you had a ,shipwreck of your faith.So. sometimes in dispair you stumble into an odyssey of self destructive behavior.Leaving the'truth' and going to the dogs is not a self-fulfilling prophecy.They are the ones who 'wreck' you and your family.
The bastards are truly wolves in sheep's clothing.(Matthew 7:15).Your family is now out of the picture,to render you support,because of the WT$'s satanic divide and conquer family wrecking.
The WT$. twisted take on the 'disfellowshipping chapter'..1 Corn. chapter five. Here we have St. Paul's adroit adjudication.,,,,"Let him be as a man of the nations, i.e. a Gentile. Or as a tax collector i.e. IRS agent. These were people's who were disliked, but not ostracized. [[Especially, if they were your own blood kin.]]
The fornicator in the Corinth congregation was reinstated in 3 months.
Later in the N.T., we have St. John's condemnation of who??? THE ANTICHRIST to come. NOT OUR WAYWARD TEENAGE DAUGHTER! @ 2 John. 7-11; John is not elaborating here on the 90 day shunning protocol of Paul.He is speaking of the Antichrist
What is the watchtower's motive for family wrecking? 
[ Final note,When the twisted elders DFed me they said that it," was an act of love".Danny sez,'Don't piss down my back and tell me it's raining'.]
I find it hard to believe, based on Jesus example, that if he were here on earth he would encourage or counsel his followers to shun me or anyone else because I am practicing sin. - sandy
Hello Sandy,
I'm assuming that you are not a practicer of sin............(well, maybe, but what the hell - none of my business, eh?)..........my coming point being - to be df'd or da'd, it is NOT necessary to be a practicer of sin....just disagree with the WTBTS. Barb & Joe Anderson, Bill Bowen, and the couple who spoke out about the sexual molestation of their daughter on Dateline - all these people were df'd, and it was never shown that any of them sinned - ever.
Hello Danny,
Thank you for such excellent quotes and understanding of the cult thinking/comparisons. Lousy cults demonize whoever they wish - and we (I was a jw for 30 yrs) follow along because "well, they DO have God's spirit and have researched this matter."
waiting
