Realist
Revisionist
New explosives found on Spanish Railroad
by donkey 32 Replies latest social current
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bisous
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Realist
double,
you are talking about revisionism and at the same time dare to justify the nuclear bomb droppings with saving lifes? japan was already negotiating a surrender....the only demand they had was that the emperor who was viewed as a god would not be put on trial. the US dropped the bombs to test them and to impress stalin nothing more nothing less.
also if you think the war was brought onto the peaceloving US than you are so naive that any further discussion would be pointless.
lastly if you tell me that erading a red cross town like dresden which was full of refugees is better than shooting people than you better explain that to me.
PS: just on a side note...germany was NOT trying to build the bomb! and where in the world did you get this rediculous story about the plan of dropping it on new york from???
bisous,
great argument! do you have to say anything of real interest?
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Double Edge
I agree with you on the bombing of Dresden. Dreadful. That being said, the rest of your post needs a lot of work.
you are talking about revisionism and at the same time dare to justify the nuclear bomb droppings with saving lifes? japan was already negotiating a surrender....the only demand they had was that the emperor who was viewed as a god would not be put on trial. the US dropped the bombs to test them and to impress stalin nothing more nothing less.
I know that the Nazis loved to burn books that contained facts.... what I didn't know was that books must have been burned after the war too, because it is obvious that you are either totally ignorant of the facts or you're working on your doctorate in revising history. How old are you?
There are numerous books on the Japanese surrender. "Japan's Longest Day" is one of the best. Here is some background info.
Book Description "Many books have been written about Japan's surrender in World War II, but the definitive story can only be told by the Japanese themselves. This brilliant reconstruction of the bitter hours preceding the surrender announcement of Emperor Hirohito is based on material compiled by the Pacific War Research Society, a panel of distinguished Japanese authors and journalists. In minute and vivid detail it relates the history-making events of the brief twenty-four-hour period before the Emperor's broadcast that changed the course of nations--and the lives of millions.
During those hours--while hot-blooded young army officers were in violent conflict about whether to surrender or not--one man, General Korechika Anami, Minister of War, with his indomitable will and loyalty, stood firm in his conviction that the Emperor's word must be obeyed. That conviction led him to the supreme sacrifice, sepukku, and his country to peace.
Japan's Longest Day is a penetrating document on the tragic personalities who played out their last great roles on the crumbling stage that was the Imperial Empire of Japan."
"This book allows us to look into the violently conflicting decision-making processes among the leaders, eventually leading to the surrender of Japan. After you read this book, you will understand what a close-fought thing that surrender was. Many of the Militarists were so opposed to surrender that they were willing to kidnap or kill the Emperor, who was regarded as God in their belief system! They were willing to do anything--absolutely anything--in order to prevent the Emperor from making the Surrender declaration. The best way to describe the efforts of the Militarists to continue the war is: insane and inhuman.
Many of the leaders absolutely KNEW that they were going to be totally defeated, but they intended to keep fighting to the last man, woman, and child in Japan. They had saved up weapons, ordnance, and fuel for the final battles. They did not care if their resistance forced the Americans to flatten and burn every city, factory, farm, house, human, crop, and animal in Japan. What would come after the war was of no concern to them whatsoever. These leaders had been pleased by the fanatic defense of Okinawa wherein thousands of civilians gave their lives willingly, even as their soldiers and kamikazes killed thousands of Americans and sunk or damaged 300 ships. They expected an even more fanatic and glorious defense of the main islands. The guaranteed deaths of millions of their own citizens through battle and starvation meant nothing to them, compared to the twisted concept of honor that they worshipped.
When you see the forces arrayed against the surrender, you can understand that only the atomic bombs (both of them; read the book) could end the war in a timely manner and with far less loss of life on both sides. Many people judge the morality or necessity of the atomic bombings without considering any context at all, and conclude that we didn't need to do it or that we were horribly immoral for having done it. These events took place in the midst of a war, not a historical vacuum. This book provides the context of the beliefs and attitudes that drove the Japanese to fight rather than surrender. Thankfully, the Emperor was sufficiently demoralized by the atomic bombs that he made the courageous decision to surrender.
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Realist
WWI and II were always of special interest to me and i read a LOT about it...so do me a favour and save your "ignorant of the facts" crap ok!
There are numerous books on the Japanese surrender.
indeed!
"Japan's Longest Day" is one of the best.
yes according to you!
here is a BBC article for kids on the topic...although lacking details a nice summary of the different viewpoints:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/schools/sosteacher/answers/answer75598.shtml
The need to defeat Japan and to end the Second World War is the most commonly held view about dropping the atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Some argue however that this was not the main reason for dropping these two bombs in 1945.
The official reason given by the government for dropping such a devastating weapon was that the deaths caused by the two bombs would be far less than the number of lives lost if the Japanese were not forced to surrender. Although by mid 1945, the Japanese were steadily retreating and had not won a successful victory against the Americans for some time, many believed this was the case. The Japanese were notoriously fanatical soldiers in the Second World War, who rarely surrendered and fought on bitterly in the face of obvious defeat. Despite the loss of hundreds of thousands of men it was thought that the Japanese army would still continue to fight until the end, therefore justifying a dramatic action like dropping the atomic bombs. In addition the war in Europe was over and many American servicemen had been sent home which would have had a big impact on the morale of the men still fighting in Asia. The American army and navy certainly didn’t want to risk a huge assault on Japan itself, which was heavily defended with such morale problems. The projected loss of life would be huge and the dropping of the atomic bomb would avoid this. There are some, however, who think that the dropping of the atomic bomb, and all the consequent deaths, was an act of revenge for the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbour and that the war could have been won by conventional means.The other main speculation as to why the US dropped the atomic bomb was to do with the emerging Cold War. Although the US and Russia were allies against Hitler during the Second World War, the war in Europe was over and both countries were looking to the future. There was always a degree of distrust between the US and USSR, who were both politically opposed to the other, one being a Communist dictatorship, the other being a Capitalist democracy. With the defeat of Germany this distrust was coming to the surface again over how Europe was to be divided. It was clear that after the Second World War, the world would be dominated by two superpowers - America and the USSR. Although it was already a very powerful country, you can argue that America needed to maintain it’s dominance over Russia and ensure it was the greater of the superpowers. In order to do this they dropped the two atomic bombs on Japan to demonstrate their power and get Russia to back down somewhat. This demonstration would be made even greater by the fact that the US had not told Russia they were developing this weapon.
It can finally be argued the US dropped the atomic bombs was to do with testing. The Manhatten Project, which developed the bombs, had cost the US government vast amounts of money. Much of this was kept secret from Congress and the US public. Such a huge investment would obviously need to be tested. Although it would be possible to test fire the bombs in the deserts of America, Hiroshima and Nagasaki would probably be the last chance the government would get to test them against people (an idea supported by the fact that the two bombs were of different designs).
The category of this answer is GCSE; History; Second World War; Major Battles and events
Now if you believe the official US governemt version of this than answer me just one question...why was it necessary to drop a SECOND bomb (interestingly using plutonium instead of uranium this time) before the japanese had time to react to the first one? why was the effectiveness of the bomb not demonstrated to the japanese in a different way? why was the wish of the japanese to not trial the emperor not accepted?
about germany...where is an at least semi decent link to the dropping a nuke on new york story?
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Double Edge
WWI and II were always of special interest to me and i read a LOT about it...so do me a favour and save your "ignorant of the facts" crap ok!
No, it's not ok.... you are ignorant of the facts (and that in and of itself is crap) .... if you've read a LOT about the war, you've obviously missed a few things.
"Japan's Longest Day" is one of the best
yes according to you
No, according to book critics. What you've ignored is that the book is written by Japanese eyewitnesses, not the speculators that your posting suggests. Again:
"Many books have been written about Japan's surrender in World War II, but the definitive story can only be told by the Japanese themselves. This brilliant reconstruction of the bitter hours preceding the surrender announcement of Emperor Hirohito is based on material compiled by the Pacific War Research Society, a panel of distinguished Japanese authors and journalists "
Regarding Nazis/Atomic Bomb/New York... earlier you implied that I've made up the story.... we'll, I didn't. Just another historical fact that you're not aware of, but Channel 4 in London obviously is:
HITLER'S PLAN TO ATOM BOMB NEW YORK If you're interested in pursuing this subject further, have a look at these Channel 4 resources ?
Battle Stations I and Battle Stations II
The machines and structures that helped the world's superpowers achieve mastery of the battlefield ? from World War II, the Korean, Cold and Vietnam wars and some from more recent conflicts.Link: http://www.channel4.com/history/microsites/H/hitler_plan_bomb_newyork/index2.html
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Realist
double,
you are ignorant of the facts
as you can see from the BBC article i posted above (and about a million more if you do a google search) facts are relative in this matter you silly boy...
i have read both sides and to me the official story doesn't make a lot of sense (the questions i posted above are only a view for which i would like to hear a logical answer). but if it does to you fine.
the link you provided about the NY nuke has only the catch line of a TV program...i assume this program is the true source of your WWII knowledge.
in any case, i have no intention to further waste my time with you.
live long and in prosper
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plmkrzy
A more sensible and logical reason for the bomb
right! apply sense and logic to reasons for bombing people
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Double Edge
i assume this program is the true source of your WWII knowledge.
Hardly ... it's the first one I found doing a quick search on Google. But as you see, I didn't make it up. Bottomline: plan included a one-way suicide trip for the German pilot. They had developed a long-range bomber that would get to New York and deliver the payload, but not have enough fuel to return. One of the stupidest (or smartest, depending on perspective) things Hitler did was to allow the emmigration of some of Germany's top Jewish scientists in the 30's. As you know, those scientist became the core group who eventually developed the bomb in New Mexico. With the decimation of the scientists, and the reallocation of financial resources, the Nazis were never able to play catch up in the race to develop the bomb. (One person that was probably relieved the most was the German pilot who didn't have to make the one-way trip ).
in any case, i have no intention to further waste my time with you.
me neither... life's too short, enough said ....
live long and in prosper
Peace. -
Simon
right! apply sense and logic to reasons for bombing people
Well, the other week everyone had decided that the bomb was a carefully contrieved plot to affect the elections. Either the terrorists are clever or they are stupid. I think it would be better to assume they are clever because that way if we are wrong then not as many people die.
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Simon
As for the only use of true WoMD by the USA, I believe an "alternate reality" has been fabricated and taught to excuse the fact that the country committed a terrible attrocity bombing a non military target of a country that was not able to defend itself:
