Is Jesus inferior because it says that He will "be subject" in 1 Cor 15:28? (page 4)

LittleToe

Besides, it's bugging the crap out of me, since I only have a 56k dial-up at home, and pictures take time to download.

Thanks for your consideration.
You're obviously still ignoring me.

hooberus

Herk, regarding your illustrations, as I said before:

Please do not post illustrations unrelated to the specific subject of the thread (For example Trinity illustrations unrelated to to the subject of this thread- 1 Corinthians 15:28). If however I start a general Trinity thread then feel free to post illustrations that you feel accurately represent Trinitarian teaching (even though this is primarily a written discussion forum). However, I feel that you should stick primarily to written discussions, rather than to illustrations. Related posting guideline: Posting an off-topic comment.

Threads which are primarily insulting in nature, (such as one which depict Trinitarians as being deliberately dishonest) are possibly a vioation of posting guidelines and generally do not add to constructive dialogue. Related posting guideline: Insulting, threatening or provoking language

Please carefully examine you illustrations before posting them to make sure that they accurately represent Trinitarian beliefs. Threads which misrepresent the beliefs of others are more of a reflection of the ignorance of their users, than they are a valid criticism of the beliefs of others. As you can see the first two items that I ask are related to posting guidelines, the last on is one that you should be willing to do voluntarily. If you do not wish to follow the above points, then please do not post illustrations my threads. You may however start your own threads, and do what you wish within posting guidelines.

hooberus

Re: background on the 1 Corinthians 15:27-28 passage:

I Corinthians 15:27( the verse prior to 28) is a quote from Psalm 8:6

Psalm 8

1: O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth! who hast set thy glory above the heavens.
2: Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou ordained strength because of thine enemies, that thou mightest still the enemy and the avenger.
3: When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained;
4: What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?
5: For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.
6: Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:
7: All sheep and oxen, yea, and the beasts of the field;
8: The fowl of the air, and the fish of the sea, and whatsoever passeth through the paths of the seas.
9: O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth!

This psalm discusses both the LORD (who is the creator), and man (who is set over the creation). The phrase "the works of thy hands" refers to the LORD's hands (the creators hands). The psalm shows that the creator of man says of man that he "madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands" and "put all things under his feet".

In the New Testamant, Jesus is shown to be this man whom the LORD set over the works of his (the LORDs) hands."

Hebrews Chapter 2

5: For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.
6: But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?
7: Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
8: Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
9: But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Now, I believe that many Unitarians would agree with the above comments: The question thus arises: Does the fact that Jesus is shown to be a man whom the LORD set over the works of his (ie: the LORDs hands), mean that Jesus could not also be the LORD who's "hands" made "the heavens" etc.?

Apparently not, because the same author of Hebrews Chapter 2 (that wrote of Jesus being the man that God set "over the works of his hands") wrote earlier:

"But unto the Son he saith . . . And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:" Hebrews 1:8-10

Jesus is shown in Hebrews to be both the Lord of whom it is said: "the heavens are the works of thine hands"(Hebrews 1:10), and the man of whom it is said, was set "over the works of thy hands:" Hebrews 2:7

Jesus the Lord

Hebrews 1

10: And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands

Jesus the man

Hebrews 2

6: But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?
7: Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
8: Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

hooberus

With this in mind lets go on to 1 Corinthians 15:27-28:

1 Corinthians 15:27 is a quote from Psalm 8:6:

"Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:" Psalm 8:6

"For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him." 1 Corinthians 15:27

The fact that Jesus is shown in 1 Corinthians 15:27 to be the man whom the Lord "put all things under his feet" is an affirmation of him being a man / son of man of whom Psalm 8:5-6 spoke of. However we know from Hebrews 1:10 (compare Psalm 102) that Jesus is also the one whos "hands" created the heavens that Psalm 8 speaks of.

The passage in 1 Corinthians 15:27-28 should be looked upon as an affirmation of the humanity of Jesus Christ (100% man ) rather than a denial of his deity (100% God).

gold_morning

I like to think of it this way.

Invision a large pitcher of water. The water being God. Now take a glass and pour some of that water in it.... The glass being Jesus. Now you have two.... yet the same substance is in each. The one came from the other yet they are seperate. That is why it is "not" said that Jesus was "created by God".. but begotten from God. It is also why Jesus could say..."if you have seen me you have seen the father, for the father and I are one.

If you see the water in the glass....you know all about the substance of the water in the pitcher.

agape love, Gold

ellderwho

Hooberus,

Very interesting, when comparing Ps. 102 with Heb 1:10. ASV

Ps 102:2

23 He weakened my strength in the way; He shortened my days. 24 I said, O my God, take me not away in the midst of my days: Thy years are throughout all generations. 25 Of old didst thou lay the foundation of the earth; And the heavens are the work of thy hands. 26 They shall perish, but thou shalt endure; Yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; As a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed:....

Heb 1:10-12 10And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning didst lay the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the works of thy hands: 11 They shall perish; but thou continuest: And they all shall wax old as doth a garment; 12 And as a mantle shalt thou roll them up, As a garment, and they shall be changed:

E

gumby

then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him,

So he wasn't subject to him BEFORE he subjects it BACK.

Yes hoob....you have a point scripturally.......but then again......the scriptures don't make sense and never will.

Gumby

herk

Gold,

Your illustration concerns inanimate items, not persons. It doesn't explain how three persons can be one supreme being. God the Father poured into God the Son still leaves you with two personal beings, not one. And where does the Holy Spirit come into your picture?

Jesus said, "If you have seen me you have seen the Father." Just as the world is to see Jesus in each of his followers, we can see the Father in Jesus. No ordinary human can actually see the Father and live. So Jesus meant something different than what you seem to be saying. Jesus is not the Father, and the Father is not Jesus. They are two separate personal beings.

herk

Is Jesus inferior because it says that He will "be subject" in 1 Cor 15:28?

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