Have You Ever Heard This Explanation Why 144,000 is a Literal Number? (page 3)

ozziepost

Should that be incense or in sense?

BTW, AlanB, you must appreciate the nuances of apocalyptic literature, which Revelation is.

Cheers, Ozzie

Had Enough

Hi Ozzie: Great to hear from you too again!!! I'm supposed to be working now so I'll send an email off to you and Mrs. Ozzie later today.

And yes I agree with you...this statement I heard last night just makes you shake your head in disbelief and go "HUH". I wonder if anyone notice my jaw drop.

Mary says:

If the 144,000 is a literal number, than the 12,000 out of every tribe of Israel must also be literal as that's where the tally of 144,000 comes from. In other words, this must be a literal number of literal Jews. It cannot be a literal number of symbolic Jews---you can't have it both ways.

And eby says:

The 24 elders in Rev. 5:8 are said to be symbolic of the 144,000 according to the WT. re:(...the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb)

The "24 elders" are in the same sentence as the "Lamb" so that WT ~~reasoning~~ thinking should include them all as being literal including the Lamb.

And I'm really surprised to see others here have heard this from the platform too.

rocketman:

One reason given is that the number of 144,000 must be literal (and limited) because it contrasts with the great crowd, "which no man was able to number" - the idea being that if symbolic then no actual number would be given.

Yes I remember that explanation now, but even then it sounded weak. lisavegas420:

I asked the sister that comes over why was 144,000 taked as a literal number, her answer to me was because it was mentioned in Revelation's twice......

That woman's thinking is even more lame than the speaker's WT explanation last night. I can't really believe he, a long-time, well-seasoned JW could look us in the eyes and dish that out to us. Interesting responses everyone....thank you ALL. Had Enough

AGuest

The number 144,000 is, in fact, literal. It the number "promised" to Abraham's seed, so that although Israel reject MischaJah... the promise to Abraham would indeed be filled. "Christians," however, are made up of that number... "from among the sons of Israel" (excluding Dan and double for Joseph)... AS WELL AS the "great crowd... from EVERY nation, tribe and tongue... which NO man was able to number."

TOGETHER these make up a kingdom "of kings and priests".

Revelation 5:9, 10

That is why the great crowd is seen STANDING BEFORE THE THRONE... and RENDERING SACRED SERVICE... IN THE TEMPLE OF GOD. These, TOO, have washed THEIR "robes" white... in the blood of the Lamb.

Only priests can render "sacred" service to God.

Revelation 7:4, 9, 15

That is why although the 12 were "apostles" to the Jews... "in all Judea and Samaria,"... PAUL... was an apostle... "to the NATIONS."

Israel, as a whole... rejected the promise given to them. So, God turned His attention TO THE NATIONS... to take out of THEM... "a people for His name."

TOGETHER, these... the "little flock" of Jews... and "other sheep" of THE NATIONS... become ONE flock... with ONE shepherd. ONE hope, ONE faith, ONE Lord, ONE Body, ONE God.

Ephesians 4:4

This is the "sacred secret" that Paul spoke about to the Jews AND "you who are of the nations... in his letter to the Romans.

Romans Chapter 11

The "Nations"... made up of people of EVERY nation, tribe and tongue... were grafted IN... "against nature," to replace those Jews who had lacked faith. The "full number" then, of the NATIONS... along WITH the 144,000... make a "holy nation, a royal priesthood" to God, through Christ.

Why? Because God... is NOT partial.

Again, I bid you peace.

A slave of Christ,

SJ

ozziepost

Only priests can render "sacred" service to God.

No, sorry SJ, but this ain't right! Or, rather, it is (or was) but not now.

The whole point of the resurrection of our Lord was demonstrated by the rent curtain in the Most Holy. He'd fulfilled all of the Mosaic Law - it no longer applied, and so no longer did humans need a priesthood to offer sacrifices on their behalf. Instead, each person may now serve in a holy priesthood, rendering sacred service with the indwelling Jesus.

There's nothing hard about that, but the WTS have so indoctrinated the R&F, that it's very, very difficult for ex-dubs to break free of the mentality that's bound up in the OT Law.

Ozzie

bebu

No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. 4 These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they kept themselves pure. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among men and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb. 5 No lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless.

So... what does "firstfruits" mean?

The firstfruits were the very beginning of the harvest--a specified amount brought as a sacrifice before people could harvest for themselves.

BUT there is a lot more to it than this, and it's quite an interesting study; unfortunately, I'm too busy to research/post anything at present.

I'm wondering if the WTS has ever given a thorough--and accurate--overview of the concept of "firstfruits" and why it is mentioned here.

(Somehow... I doubt it.)

bebu

Kenneson

Also, it is interesting if this is literal that only virgin men ( who did not defile themselves with women) constitute the number 144,000. Are there any women "anointed"? Sorry.

Farkel

: Well he said its very simple....the scripture talks about the Lamb and the 144,000. It doesn't say Lambs as in more than one....No, it says Lamb referring to the "literal number of one Lamb".

: So thats how we know that the 144,000 is a literal number and not symbolic like all the rest of Revelation.

What a pile of crap! For that argument to be valid, the Lamb would have to be a literal or real sheep, and the twelve tribes that comprise the 144,000 would have to be literal tribes. The WTS teaches the lamb SYMBOLIZES Christ, and the twelve tribes making up the 144,000 are symbolic tribes, yet the 144,000 itself is literal.

Dan0,

: I had always concluded that the number was based on 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel, and was therefore a very symbolic number.

No, there are some tribes in those verses that were never a part of Israel's 12 tribes.

Farkel

AGuest

The reason the curtain was rent in two was so that ANYONE could enter... into the MOST Holy... THROUGH the "curtain"... which was Christ's flesh... which "curtain" was put off... done away with... removed.

So that now, through HIM... and NOT through a fabric curtain... ANYONE who DID enter would be constituted a "priest"... (for they would be "holy"... for only the "holy" can enter before God - and this is NOT "holy" as many teach - i.e., according to the Law Covenant, but according to the CLEANSING by means of the blood of the Lamb, Christ). Since they would be cleansed by such blood... and therefore "holy"... they would be "priests"... able to "offer up sacrifices"... prayers... which God would hear.

ONLY "priests" can render sacred service)... but NOW such "priests" are taken from EVERY... "nation" (and not just Israel)... "tribe" (and not just Levi)... and "tongue" (not just Hebrew-speaking).

Peace to you!

A slave of Christ,

SJ

Kenneson

A Guest,

Can any of these "priests" be women?

AGuest

in that they did not "defile" themselves... with "women." They did not commit SPIRITUAL adultery with the RELIGIONS of the earth... the "daughters of Babylon,"... AFTER they were CLEANSED... return to a "virginal" state... by the blood of the Christ. As his BRIDE, they recognize no one but HIM... as their "husbandly owner."

This contrasts with "Oholah" (the 10-tribe kingdom of Israel) and "Oholibah" (the 2-tribe kingdom of Judah) who left God as their "owner"... and took up with other gods.

Babylon the Great, those who WERE "in union" with Christ... but committed "fornication" with "the kings of the earth,"... had "daughters"... the OFFSPRING of this "union"... her "daughters." Sectarian religions.

These spoken of in the Revelation, then, are those from among ISRAEL... who, once "betrothed" to their husband, Christ, by means of a NEW Covenant... which institutes the start of becoming ONE spirit with him (as a man and woman become one flesh...)... stay TRUE to him... virgins... awaiting his arrival... and marriage.

I bid you peace.

A slave of Christ,

SJ

Have You Ever Heard This Explanation Why 144,000 is a Literal Number?

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