HOW ABOUT MENTIONING JESUS AT THE MEMORIAL!

by Mary 47 Replies latest jw friends

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  Triple A

  It says to keep doing it in memory of him, until he returns. Now, since Jesus returned in 1914, why the @#$% are the JWs still celebrating the memorial? Invisibility is out of the question!

  This is what Russell said in Vol 6 of the Studies of the Scriptures The New Creation copy write 1904 edition 1917 page 465 on why they still celibrate the memorial.

  The end of the paragraph that starts The Apostle adds...

  ...Faith in the ransom continues to find its illustration in this simple memorial, "till he come,"- not only until our Lord's parousia, or presence, in the harvest or end of this age, but until during his parousia one by one his faithful ones have been gathered to him, beyond the "Veil," there to participate to a still fuller degree, and, as our Lord declared, partake of it "anew in the Kingdom."

  Of course there is no scripture reference to support this thought, just Russell's say so. Most active witnesses have probably never seen this.

  I would like to know how did Jesus return in 1914 (of course in this edition he returned in 1874 and Armegedon was to be 1914), as Michael or as Jesus? In which form will he rule in the 1, 000 year reign?
• 

  Mary

  I would like to know how did Jesus return in 1914 as Michael or as Jesus? In which form will he rule in the 1, 000 year reign?

  Excellent question! I've never thought of that angle before and I don't recall ever seeing this question in Questions from Readers? It's a toss-up, because Daniel chapter 2 specifically says that "Michael, the great Prince", but other places in the NT talks about Jesus "coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory".

  They make him sound like some cartoon character:

  "....Prince Michael, strange visitor from another planet......disguised as Mild-Mannered Messiah Jesus Christ, who fights for truth, justice in the Watchtower way......."
• 

  Triple A

  Excellent question! I've never thought of that angle before and I don't recall ever seeing this question in Questions from Readers? It's a toss-up, because Daniel chapter 2 specifically says that "Michael, the great Prince", but other places in the NT talks about Jesus "coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory".

  I do not want to get off the subject of the Memorial and what people observed this year. But I read Daniel 2 and I do not see how it specifically says that Michael is the one that returns. The symboligy of the Rock is never used with Michael, but is used for Jesus.
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  Deleted

  We weren't invited. We think that the Estacada Oregon congregation is gonna get zapped at the Big A for being blood-guily over that. Shame on them. No, we wouldn't have gone anyway and the last time we were invited I did say that I would partake as since 1914 was really 1934 (20 yrs of on the 607 BCE chronology) then there couldn't have been a great crowd of other sheep staying on earth anyway. Maybe I dug my own grave. Never mind.
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  justhuman

  I my self came to that conclusion. Even though I live in Greece I made the same observations. This year, the Memorial was focusing the 144000. Not much about Jesus. It seems that the GB gave the new Memorial talk to all the congregations world wide.

  When I have done the Memorial talk 12 years ago it was much different. This year all they focus was the annointed class and how many are still alive from 1935 were was the end of the heavingly calling.

  It seems to me that while time goes by(actually they shouldn't have 8400 annointed ones if the calling has and that year-1935, and this number it has been the same for the past 15 years. If someone was 20 years old back in 1935 that means it is now 94!!! ) WT will need more efford to convince the rank and file of JW's that this dogma it is correct, or again they will find another new date to set again for the annointed class.
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  plmkrzy

  Absolutely NO reading of the actual Last Supper, Judas' betrayal, Jesus praying in the Garden of Gethsamine, His arrest, trial and executiion----NOTHING!!! I specifically remember years ago that ALL of these things were the topic at the Memorial, as that is supposed to be what the event is about. While the 144,000 has always been mentioned, it NEVER used to be the frigging main theme! I was particularly disgusted last night. Jesus died for us, it's the one time of the year at the Hall where the focus should be exclusively on HIM, and he's barely mentioned!!

  Did anyone else who went notice this?

  After reading a few threads here and there on this topic I am glad I didn't attend.

  The memorial I attended that I remember being engaging, due to a abnormally good speaker, was I think 1996. It might have been ?97 but I think it was ?96.

  Otherwise I can't remember any speaker during all the others in the last couple of decades doing the memorial any justice.
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  Mary

  But I read Daniel 2 and I do not see how it specifically says that Michael is the one that returns.

  You're right---it doesn't. All it says is "...during that time, Michael will stand up, the great Prince...." There's absolutely no indication whatsoever that this is referring to Jesus or the Second Coming. I'm not even sure where they ever came up with the idea that Michael and Jesus are one and the same----more confusing than the Trinity if you ask me. Michael is an archangel, Jesus is the Son of God. Slight bit of difference there.
• 

  ozziepost

  Michael is an archangel, Jesus is the Son of God. Slight bit of difference there.

  Exactly! It surprises me that more dubs don't question that.

  Cheers, Ozzie
• 

  plmkrzy

  angel , [Gr.,=messenger], bodiless, immortal spirit, limited in knowledge and power, accepted in the traditional belief of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam and other religions. Angels appear frequently in the Bible, often in critical roles, e.g., visiting Abraham and Lot (Gen. 18; 19), wrestling with Jacob (Gen. 32.24?32), and guiding Tobit (Tobit 5). The Bible also speaks of guardian angels, protecting individuals or nations (Dan. 10.10?21; Mat. 18.10). In the Gospels an angel announced the Incarnation to the Virgin Mary (Luke 1), and an angel at the empty tomb revealed the Resurrection (Mat. 28.1?7). While Judaism has no fixed ordering of classes of angels, Christianity has a specific hierarchy. Codified in its classic form in the 5th cent by St.

  , in The Celestial Hierarchy. In descending order the ranks of angels are seraphim, cherubim, thrones; dominations, virtues, powers; principalities, arch-angels, and angels. Roman Catholics and the Orthodox venerate angels, and the cult of guardian angels is especially extensive in the West (feast of Guardian Angels: Oct. 2). Protestants have generally abandoned the cult of angels. In Christianity, the angels of Hell, or dark angels, or devils, are the evil counterpart of the heavenly host; the chief of them, Satan (or Lucifer), was cast out of heaven for leading a revolt. They are often viewed as the initiators of evil temptations. Famous literary treatments of angels are those of John Milton's Paradise Lost and Dante's Divine Comedy. Angels play an important role in many other religions. Later Zoroastrian theology has numerous classes of yazatas "worshipful beings." Zoroastrian notions of angels influenced the intricate theories of heavenly beings of Gnostic systems and Manichaeism. In Islam the four archangels Jibrail, Mikail, Israfil, and Izrail (the Angel of Death) often act in place of Allah. The Kiram al-Katibin are the recording angels. According to a popular tradition, each person has two scribe angels, the one on the right side recording good deeds, the one on the left taking note of transgressions. A lower order of angels is the jinn

  prince

  
  
  Pronunciation: (prins),

  
  ?n.
  1. a nonreigning male member of a royal family.
  2. Hist.a sovereign or monarch; king.
  3. (in Great Britain) a son or grandson (if the child of a son) of a king or queen.
  4. the English equivalent of any of various titles of nobility in other countries.
  5. a holder of such a title.
  6. the ruler of a small state, as one actually or nominally subordinate to a suzerain: Monaco is ruled by a prince.
  7. a person or thing that is chief or preeminent in any class, group, etc.: a merchant prince.
  8. a person possessing admirably fine and genial characteristics: He is a prince of a man.

  arch-angel

  1.

  Theol.a chief or principal angel; in medieval angelology one of the nine orders of celestial attendants on God. Cf. angel (def. 1).

  I guess it's all in how one wants to interpret the meanings

  question:

  How many arch-angels are there mentioned in the scriptures?
• 

  Mary

  How many arch-angels are there mentioned in the scriptures?

  I heard it explained once (by someone of gasp! another religion!) that there were originally 3 Archangels: Michael, Gabriel and Lucifer. Each of them would have 1/3 of all the angels under their direct command (I guess equivalent to Generals in an army). Lucifer had dominion over the earth and wanted worship for himself and according to Revelation, he managed to dupe his entire army into turning away from Jehovah: "....he drew a third of the stars and hurled them down to earth."

  I would assume that there's different ranks in a heavenly organization the same as what there is here on earth: they've got Jehovah at the top, then Jesus, then the Archangels, you've got seraphim, cherubims, the 24 elders, the 144,000, your average angel.........I wonder why the Borg has never discussed this seeing as they're so fond of rank and file here on earth.