I getting bored with this Board

by OlderTom 37 Replies latest jw friends

thinkers wife

Older Tom,
I honestly feel I can understand where you are coming from! Many times I feel the very same way.
But then again, I can also say that in the replies you got, many of my thoughts are also reflected.
Guess I just hope that some day, I can find a way to help the one's I love who are still in (including most of my family). I am just hoping that my family will not just fritter away the precious little time we have left. Maybe real communication will open up someday, if I am just patient. Continue learning and knowing.
This board and the internet, provided me with a wealth of information that I could have never been exposed to any other way!! And the personal stories and knowlege of people like you and Larc and so many others have given me the stamina and ablility to be firm in my decision despite all the losses!!
Thank you for opening up this discussion. Just more information to keep me focused!
TW
Marilyn

OT, I've been 'out' for 20 yrs. I find now that I come and go with exjw internet stuff. I was really hooked for a while and now I just drop in and hang around for various lengths of time. I've found that if I don't keep abreast of all the reading (oops this is getting to sound familiar) - some dub comes to my door and my mind isn't prepared. I have also found that understanding what happened with the WT has helped me in other aspects of my life. It's given me insights that I don't think I would have had under other circumstances. I never say when I'm bored, I just slip away unnoticed. Then I'm able to come back, also unnoticed and enjoy some more company, when I feel refreshed. Lately I'm a tad hooked on chat - but I expect that too will pass. I just enjoy it if I can and if I don't I give it a rest. No big deal. Luckily we don't have people keepin' an eye on our attendance eh?
all the best
Marilyn
OlderTom

You said ...if some Dub comes to my door...
No chance of that happening here, we are on the DO NOT CALL list
I have observed them come into my street visit the houses on either side, one a drug dealer the other a muslim, but the did not knock on our door.
Judged, hung and drawn and quartered all in our absence and without our being able to utter a word in our defence. Now THAT is Christian love Watchtower style.
Marilyn

OT - remember I've been out 20 yrs. I've lived in a few different locations in that time. Eleven of those years were spent in Hong Kong - and the door to door isn't too frequent there. However in Australia - where I am now - they seem to keep coming back to me even though they now know I'm d'fd (they got suspicious so I confessed). One guy came just the other day - but I was too busy to talk to him (how frustrating was that?).
To put your mind at rest I will tell you that even when you can pretend ignorance of their teachings and play act the inquiring householder and ask them difficult questions - they seem programmed to shut off to the hard stuff and they content themselves with irrelevent answers that satisfy themselves rather than you. It's all a total waste of time IMHO, having tried it on several occasions. Our problem is that we imagine that we can have a rational conversation with them. You can't . They are preprogrammed to shut down if the going get's tuff.
However you comment re: hung drawn and quarted...... I've often felt like that about my family. Given that I was the chief one pushing my family to get involved - I take a very dim view of not being allowed to explain why they should get uninvolved. Soooooooooo unfair.
Marilyn
YoungerTom

Hi OlderTom, I get the feeling that I know who you are talking about, I suppose if the cap fits!! However, freedom goes two ways and you haven't convinced me that you are right, yet. Yes I can see all the flaws in the Borg, but I, unlike you, still believe that the Bible is God's Word (Society talk) and that the basic beliefs are bible based. But I have never been a Society man, don't like them, hate the way they run Bethel, and have always said that if Jehovah and Jesus run the new system like the brothers run Bethel, who would want to be there!!! So I am in the horns of a dilemma. There is a lot of love between the ordinary brothers and sisters (the real people) I know that it is conditional, but that is the same in most cases, unless two or more people have a strong bond going back a long time. To all the others who have posted to this topic, there is a lot of anger, and I can understand that. What I would like to know is, If you no longer believe the JW's doctrines, what conclusions have you come to. If you want to woo people away you have to put something concrete in its place. Don't go away OlderTom, your topics always have bite, see you soon, YoungerTom
ozziepost

G'day Young Tom,
Boy, you got to the board quick, didn't you?!
still believe that the Bible is God's Word (Society talk) and that the basic beliefs are bible based
Have you done all your homework? Perhaps you need a "Work on this" marked on your your Counsel Sheet Let's see.
What 'basic beliefs' have you in mind? What about these:
1. Gentile Times ended in 1914 Do you believe that? You may know that Ray Franz refers in one of his books to the study on this compiled by (at the time) a JW by the name of Carl Olof Jonsson. I recommend that you read it. (That is, after finishing both of Ray Franz's books!) It can be obtained from Koorong bookshops
in Australia http://www.koorong.com
or from http://www.freeminds.com in the United States.
Of course, you may be able to borrow it from the same source as the lenders of Ray Franz's books!! So there's a bit of homework for you.
2. God's Kingdom will come within this generation What generation? Can you concur with the current definition of 'generation'? Are you in agreement with this basic belief of Jehovah's Witnesses?
3. The Faithful & Discreet Slave Do you believe that Jesus has appointed a group of men to take control of all his earthly belongings? If so, you will agree that the Holy Spirit is guiding them, for Jesus promised that he would be with his disciples until the conclusion of the system of things? Why then, have they been promoting a system of codified laws that Jesus himself said that he came to do away with? You would be well aware from what you have seen and heard and read of the effect of such a legalistic approach. You have said that "if Jehovah and Jesus run the new system like the brothers run Bethel, who would want to be there!!! " How could Jesus possibly be "with" these disciples as a ruling body? Indeed, would not the socialist philosophy better express a concern for the welfare of ALL than what is being displayed by the Borg? Yet we believe that Christ came to save us. He is Lord of all.
4. 144,000 This figure taken literally is flawed on a number of counts.
(i) Have there only been 144,000 faithful "true" Christians in the past two centuries? How many were there in the first century who were taught by the apostles? Elsewhere on this board we have talked about those Christians buried in the catacombs. Hundreds of thousands are buried there. The Watchtower concludes that, just because they died as Christian martyrs, doesn't mean that they were "true" Christians. What do you think of that? Do you agree with that supposition? If you don't, then you have a real problem with the full number of 144,000.
(ii) The number of 144,000 was complete in 1935. Could you show a householder where this belief is scripturally based? Indeed, apart from the proclamation in the Watchtower magazine, what evidence is there?
(iii) When Jesus said "I am with you always, even to the end of the age", doesn't it mean that both Jesus and his disciples were always present until the end of the system of things? And what type of God would allow his people to be without the means of salvation for nearly two thousand years? Didn't He care for them? Of course He did!
5. Jesus is the Mediator for the 144,000 only, not for the Great Crowd.
This is refuted by much more able writers than I, such as the books by Ray Franz that you have. Note the apostle Paul's words at 1 Timothy 2:15:"For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, a man Christ Jesus who gave himself as a corresponding ransom for all.." The Borg says that the "other sheep" only have Jesus as their mediator "by extension" through the 144,000. Young Tom, do you agree with that basic doctrine?
The full list of basic doctrines are found in the JW brochure. It's a good idea to review these honestly from time to time and ascertain if they match your personal beliefs.
Finally you mention
If you no longer believe the JW's doctrines, what conclusions have you come to.
The conclusions are many and varied it seems, if this forum is anything to go by. You would know that many examine their JW beliefs in the light of Scripture and on this basis have withdrawn from the Witnesses. Where do they go? I recommend this to you, in Jesus' words:"I am the Way, the Truth , and the Life. No-one comes to the Father except through me" - John 14:6
Jesus was not here describing membership of an organisation but a relationship with him. Will you try that? Don't look for an organisation to have a relationship with, but develop your relationship with Him who gave His life for you.
God Bless
Cheers,
Ozzie
"Truth persuades by teaching, but does not teach by persuading."
TERTULLIAN, Adversus Valentinianos
OlderTom

Hi YougerTom, good to see you posting. Unlike the place We are used to, here healthy discussion is encouraged and you have no one constantly looking over your shoulder in case you might say someting which is not in line with current Watchtower light.
The society explains it'e ever changing light as a sailingship tacking into the wind. I know a little about sailing, a sailing ship gets to where it's going in the long run but the society is tacking back and forth and not making progress.
Example the men of sodom will get a resourection Yes/No six times they changed their mind that's not new light that's flashing light on/off. Look it up for yourself. Unfortunately much of the embarrasing older Watchtower stuff is not on the CD Rom. "Like millions now living will never die" Where are they now? Dead as a doornail.
Ozziepost basically summed it up with his post and didn't leave me much to answer. One of my biggest gripes with the Society is they blatent dishonesty boardering on criminality. They have murdered many people by they rules made of man claiming it to be theocracy.
The Mexico/Malarwi circus. Not many Dubs know about that one. When Jehovah changed his mind on organ transplant. All the BS and blatant misinformation on the blood issue. I could go on and on but unless you research it for yourself your inbuild JDub filter will simply block it out as apostacy. I'm not having a go at you it is the way we were all programmed.
I really urge you to read "that book" and you will know why the society tries so hard to keep it away from the average Watchtower clone. And why they constantly warn against the internet. It's information they cannot control and this wil eventually bring them down in OUR livetime.
You are right, most JDubs are decent and kind hearted people but they are controlled manipulated & exploited by an evil money/power hungry bunch of old farts.
I noticed that with our situation, many of the older ones were really happy for us but they had to shunn us because it's the law. Watchtower law.
The go beyond what is written in the scriptures
To what conclusions have I come?
Don't know for sure yet but I have learned that religion ( not spirituality) is the second oldes racket in the world.
Can't quite accept the idea that there is no creator but much of the book of miths (the bible) has been greatly bent, twisted and distorted. Much of which is in the bible can be verified with a study of ancient history but you know how it is, stories get distorted in time, 2000 years is a long time.
I learned a lot from the Watchtower perhaps too much.
This is always a danger when the student knows more than the master.
At least we are still making progress learning new things rather than going over the same old stuff year after year. I could take a 1950 Watchtower, put nex months date on it and most Watchtower clones would accept it as a 2001 issue.
cornish

Whats the saying,Where good men keep silent evil prospers,
The Watchtower would love us to shut up and fade away,I think there are some JWs happy to worship the Watchtower right or wrong,and happy in their self rightousness,but many more who are genuinly decieved and prisoners.
I am so glad that 2 people who never were JWs had taken the trouble to help me and learnt about the WT to help people like me,I am so glad Ray Franz took the time to write In Search of Christian Freedom,an excellent deprograming tool for me,the list is endless.
cornish

Time is such a precious thing and I also try to be ballanced and keep up with hobbies and other interests,and dont want the Watchtower to be an obsesion now I have left
Quester

YoungerTom wrote:
"but I, unlike you, still believe that the Bible is God's
Word (Society talk) and that the basic beliefs are
bible based. But I have never been a Society man,
don't like them..."
I never left the jw religion for doctrinal reasons.
It was more about behavior than doctrine.
I think they are a high control group.
Information control, behavioral control thru coercion,
threats, guilt, shame, fear even though jw's deny this and
say that love motivates them. Many feel trapped inside the
org because they will be ostracized by family and
friends if they leave and they believe if they leave the org,
God will reject/abandon them. How is that about love?!
Something is very wrong with that picture.
YoungerTom wrote:
"To all the others who have posted to this topic, there is
a lot of anger, and I can understand that. What I would like
to know is, If you no longer believe the JW's doctrines, what
conclusions have you come to. If you want to woo people
away you have to put something concrete in its place."
That is a very good point. I've thought the same thing.
And I know the jw thinking is "where else is there to go?"
(Actually it is whom not where in John 6). And sadly, if all
they see is angry, negative, critical people who have completely
lost all faith in God, they will probably want to just stay in the org.
What conclusions have I come to so far since leaving the
jw religion 6 years ago?
That a relationship with God is available to ALL, not just
those inside the org. And that each of us must find our own
way and make our own choices instead of allowing others to
do that for us. Quester

I getting bored with this Board

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