Does Jesus being the "Son of God" mean that he is not God by nature ?

by hooberus 92 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • herk
    herk

    Richie,

    Mighty God is an expression solely reserved for the only true God, the Supreme Being. When you study the original language, it is exactly as indicated where this title "Mighty God' belongs to Almighty God!

    Your statement is quite pompous, ending as it does with an exclamation point. If you really are a student of the original language, as you seem to suggest by your statement, you know very well that "almighty" and "mighty" are not related words in the Hebrew language, even though they appear to be in English. The word "mighty" has to do with strength, power, and ability to prevail. The word normally translated as "almighty," which comes from a different Hebrew word, shadday, has to do with self-sufficiency or the "all-providing" character of God. It may also have reference to his "invincible" nature. Hebrew scholars are not in total agreement with the exact meaning of this word.

    The Brown, Driver and Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon of the Old Testament defines "Mighty God" as "divine hero, reflecting the divine majesty." It is precisely that same Messianic sense which allows the psalmist to address the king of Israel as "God," without inviting us to think that there are now two members of the Judeo-Christian God. The quotation of Psalm 45:6 in Hebrews 1:8 brings that same Messianic use of the word "God" into the New Testament. We should not misunderstand this very Jewish use of titles. It is a serious mistake to think that the Messiah has now stepped into the space reserved for the One God, the Father. However exalted the position of Jesus and despite his function as God's special representative, the strict unipersonal monotheism of Israel's faith is never compromised by any New Testament writer.

    Regarding the Messiah's title "Mighty God," the NIV Study Bible footnote states: "His divine power as a warrior is stressed." There is no hint of the title belonging only to Almighty God, as you assume.

    If you examine Isaiah 9 and 10 closely, you will note a distinction between Almighty God and Mighty God. They are not necessarily the same persons. Isaiah 9 concerns the origin of the Messiah. He starts as a child and goes through stages of development. He is not born as a government administrator: "The government will be on his shoulder." He is not born "Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace." Those are titles "he will be called." (Verse 6) He will be a man. "He will reign on David's throne and over his kingdom." Will he accomplish all this by his own power and authority? The answer is: "The zeal of the LORD Almighty will accomplish this." (Verse 7)

    There are two ways of looking at the term "Mighty God" in Isaiah 10. (1) The fulfillment of verses 20-23 occurs long before the Messiah is born. At that time, the title is borne by God the Father. (2) According to Jewish understanding, Isaiah 9:6 had a fulfillment in King Hezekiah. Isaiah 10:21 also has its fulfillment in him. Isaiah 10 speaks of both "the LORD God Almighty" and "the mighty God" within a few verses of each other. See verses 21, 23 and 24. In the fulfillment, a faithful remnant led by Hezekiah survived the Assyrian invasion of 701 B.C., and later a remnant returned from Babylonian exile. Any return to the Almighty at that time required a return to Hezekiah, God's appointed leader of the people. That is a perfectly logical explanation of Isaiah 10:20, 21: "In that day the remnant of Israel, the survivors of the house of Jacob, will no longer rely on him who struck them down but will truly rely on the LORD, the Holy One of Israel. A remnant will return, a remnant of Jacob will return to the Mighty God [Hezekiah]."

    If you can't acknowledge that men like Moses, David, and Hezekiah were rightly viewed as "God" by the Jews, your disagreement is with Almighty God and with the men he inspired to write the Old Testament.

    herk

  • Richie
    Richie

    In Isa 9:6, the term here used for God, El, is taken from a Hebrew or root, which, signifies strength; and perhaps a literal translation even of that title might be, "The Strong one," the strong God. But there is added to this an adjective in the Hebrew, expressive of mightiness, and the two taken together express the omnipotence of Christ, his real deity and his omnipotence, as standing first and foremost among the attributes which the prophet beheld. "The mighty God."

    Acknowledging these things does not mean that we will understand all the answers to all the questions that might arise because of what we read. But it does mean that we are willing to accept God as he reveals himself (whether or not we fully understand), instead of "reinventing" a God-concept that caters to our imaginations and preferences.

    There is much in the Bible that does not appeal to the "natural" (unregenerate) mind. Many things are not presented in the ways that one's "preconceived notions" would mandate. No wonder the apostle Paul declares that our minds must be "renewed"! (Romans 12:2) No wonder he describes the mind that has not submitted to Christ as "darkened in understanding"! (Ephesians 4:18)

    We should reflect on the fact that NO revelation of the mighty God could ever exhaustively reveal his infinite nature. Any revelation in creation would (and must be) only a finite reflection of the infinite One who created all things. Yet throughout Scripture, we read that - because of his great love for us - God has revealed himself to us in many ways! And here we read about what is perhaps the most amazing - yet most complete (though still finite)- revelation of all! Let us praise him and give him the glory he deserves (example: Revelation 14:7). But let us never become so arrogant that we think we - finite beings of the dust - can fully comprehend the God who made us, and who reveals himself to us. We cannot even fully comprehend creation itself (Ecclesiastes 8:17); how much less can we comprehend the wonders of our Creator!

    The context of this verse refers to a coming Ruler, who will reign on David's throne forever (verse 7) - his rule will never come to an end. Clearly, this will be no ordinary ruler. And the four titles he bears show this quite vividly: "And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace." And who will accomplish all this? None other than "the LORD Almighty" himself - the one called "the mighty God" in many places throughout the Old Testament!

    Richie :*)

  • herk
    herk

    Richie,

    Where did you cut and paste your last post from? It is typical Trinitarian vagueness. You completely ignored the Jewish usage of God pertaining to the kings of their nation. Such rejection of the Scriptures will never lead to truth.

    herk

  • Kenneson
    Kenneson

    Herk states: "The Bible clearly teaches that others of God's agents besides Christ were called "God." The real "picking and choosing" goes on when Trinitarians claim "God" means almighty God with respect to Christ but not Almighty God with reference to angels, Moses, David, the judges of Israel and others."

    But the Bible also teaches that there is a distinction between angels and Moses and Jesus. Hebrews shows that Jesus is superior to them. So apparently they are not "God" in the same sense. Try as you may to make Jesus on a par with all of the other agents of God, he is not. He is higher. In David's case, see Matt. 22:41-45. As to the judges Ps. 82:7 says they will dies just as men do; and like any one of the princes they will fall. Jesus is unique and superior to all these examples you give of "gods."

  • stillajwexelder
    stillajwexelder

    agree, Mr. Kim!

    Arian, and proud of it!!!

    ME TOO - SON OF GOD -NOT ALMIGHTY GOD

  • Kenneson
    Kenneson

    Son of God, what does that mean? Is he no different from angels, and all others called sons of God in the Bible? Even believers are called "sons of God." If there is nothing special about Jesus, don't you wonder why practically all the New Testament is devoted to him? There is a sense that Jesus is Son, that all the other "sons" are not. Some like the angels are "sons" through creation. Some like believers are sons through "adoption." But Jesus is Son by nature. God can only "beget" God, likewise humans only can beget humans. Yahweh is Jesus' Father in a way that he is not your Father and my Father.

    Jesus, to me is special. In no wise do I equate myself or anyone else to his level. If he is no different from any of the other "sons of God," then why would anyone need him?

  • herk
    herk

    Kenneson,

    I'm starting to get the impression that you have a habit of reading into things and finding things that are not really there.

    Try as you may to make Jesus on a par with all of the other agents of God, he is not.

    My objection is to the Trinitarian goal of placing Jesus on a par with Almighty God, something the Bible does not do. You are attempting to say that the goal of non-trinitarians is to place Jesus on a par with human and angelic agents of God. Your attempt is either evil or due to a failure to read properly. I hope it is the latter. Still, it is difficult to excuse.

    The Bible clearly teaches that Jesus was exalted by God far above all others, except for God himself. Do you have any reason to suspect that we have rejected the following inspired statement? If you do, please show us, without distorting what I've written.

    1 Corinthians 15:20-28 - But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at his coming, then comes the end, when he hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when he has abolished all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death. For he has put all things in subjection under his feet. But when he says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that he is excepted who put all things in subjection to him. When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to him, so that God may be all in all.

    The Bible clearly teaches that Christ died and was resurrected. He was the first man ever to be resurrected by God to eternal life. Adam, the man, brought death to the human race. Jesus, the man, brought life.

    Romans 5:14-18 - Adam . . . is a type of him who was to come. But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification. For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the one, Jesus Christ. So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.

    Adam, the man, lost his right to exercise dominion over the earth. Jesus, the man, gained that right. God has given Jesus the man "all authority in heaven and on earth." (Matthew 28:18) His authority is greater than that of any man or angel. But as the above text shows, that authority is limited. Jesus has no authority over his God and Father who granted him that authority. Neither is Jesus equal to God. Eventually he will hand back his great authority to his God and Father.

    The Bible makes matters so simple, but Trinitarians have chosen to mythologize God, Christ and the Holy Spirit to the point that very few Christians can clearly define who or what they are.

    But Jesus is Son by nature. God can only "beget" God, likewise humans only can beget humans. Yahweh is Jesus' Father in a way that he is not your Father and my Father.

    Aren't you forgetting that Adam was a direct Son of God? Jesus is not God by nature any more than Adam was. Jesus is the second Adam, not the second God:

    1 Corinthians 15:45 - So also it is written, "The first man, Adam, became a living soul." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

    herk

  • Kenneson
    Kenneson

    Herk,

    Whether you consider me evil or not is not important. Jesus is still God as is the Father and the Holy Spirit.

  • herk
  • herk
    herk

    Kenneson,

    Whether you consider me evil or not is not important. Jesus is still God as is the Father and the Holy Spirit.

    Only God and you know whether you are evil. Your twisting of what I wrote as if I consider you to be evil is further evidence that you have this habit of reading into things what is not there. This helps me better to understand why you have eagerly swallowed the Trinity doctrine hook, line and sinker.

    herk

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