Do the Sadduccees deserve to be seen in a more favorable light?

by True North 20 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  True North

  http://www.epicurus.net/history.html

  Leolaia,

  There's an epicurus.net site? I had no idea. That's good to know as I've recently started reading Epicurus and find his ideas of real interest. Are you perchance a closet Epicurean?

  I stand corrected, Narkissos. I just consulted the Jewish Encyclopedia, and it says the passages that give a contrary impression are likely interpolations.

  The excerpts from Ecclesiastes that Narkissos presented do seem to have an Epicurean flavor to them. However, out of curiosity, I just read the second chapter of Ecclesiastes. While the 24th verse ("There is nothing better for mortals than to eat and drink, and find enjoyment in their toil.") could be considered Epicurean in spirit, it appears to me, at least at first glance, that the entire balance of the chapter could be viewed as a repudiation of that spirit, saying that mortal efforts are fruitless vanity and that there is no enjoyment of life apart from God. So, would the Jewish Encyclopedia be suggesting that a single verse represents the original text while the other twenty-five are interpolations?

  According to the post from ignorance is strength, the Sadduccees believed "you should care for yourself and stay out of sin to avoid punishment from God. Lets say someone was blind, a Sadduccee would conclude that he must have been a terrible sinner to deserve such punishment." Epicurus, on the other hand, taught that these sorts of fears -- that gods punished and rewarded people -- were irrational and harmful.
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  Farkel

  : Do the Sadduccees deserve to be seen in a more favorable light?

  Yes. In the book "Holy Blood, Holy Grail" the assertion is made that entire sections of the Gospels were re-written to show the Romans in a somewhat favorable light and make the Jewish religious leaders out to be the bad guys for Christ's execution. It presents evidence that it was actually a Roman execution, not a Jewish execution. Jesus was far more of a threat to Roman authority than he was to Jewish authority. He rode into Jerusalem as a KING for cryin' out loud. The Jews and Romans had many squirmishes and battles in the decades before and after Jesus came on the scene, and utterly destroyed the city in 70 A.D. long after the death of Jesus. Why? Threat to Roman authority, that's why. The Romans were the bad guys.

  When he devised the clever scheme to make the Roman religion and the Christian religion more alike in order to consolidate his support from Romans and Jews he ordered the doctoring of the gospels to accomplish his goals. We all know that the traditional Jewish sabbath is and was from sundown Friday to sundown Saturday. Why do most Christians observe the Sabbath on Sunday today, then? It was because of Constantine. Sunday was a holy day for sun-worshipping pagans. Get it? "SUN-day?" In creating his pet version of Christianity, he merely move the Sabbath day one day ahead for Christians so it coincided with the pagan holiday.

  If you haven't read it, Holy Blood, Holy Grail is a wealth of history of the evolution of Christianity.

  Farkel
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  Narkissos

  TrueNorth:

  I didn't mean Qoheleth was a pure epicurean product, or even a Jewish brand of epicurism. It reflects epicurean influence in a monotheistic context. Yes there is a God in Qoheleth, but he is far away, unknowable, and he doesn't ordinarily reward the good or punish the bad; yet it is safe to fear him.

  For the connection with the Sadducees, the only (but central) ritual section (4:17ff or 5:1ff) is interesting, showing that the temple service is more important to the author than private religious zeal (against the Pharisees). This suits the Sadducees' stance very well:

  Guard your steps when you go to the house of God; to draw near to listen is better than the sacrifice offered by fools; for they do not know how to keep from doing evil. Never be rash with your mouth, nor let your heart be quick to utter a word before God, for God is in heaven, and you upon earth; therefore let your words be few. For dreams come with many cares, and a fool's voice with many words. When you make a vow to God, do not delay fulfilling it; for he has no pleasure in fools. Fulfill what you vow. It is better that you should not vow than that you should vow and not fulfill it. Do not let your mouth lead you into sin, and do not say before the messenger (= the priest?) that it was a mistake; why should God be angry at your words, and destroy the work of your hands?
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  Leolaia

  English Patient.....Just curious, what's the story on the Jewish Encyclopedia?
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  English Patient

  Hi Leolaia ,

  I really don't trust the Jewish version of events. To me, consulting a Jewish encyclopedia is like consulting a big book of lies. Jews have a colorful history of lying to Goyim (non-Jews) therefore I hold no interest in listening to what they have to say.

  Besides, any group of people which tells it's followers that 'sex with little girls is ok' and 'all non Jews are animals', 'all non Jewish women are whores' and 'most non Jewish men have sex with wild animals' are not worthy of any kind of respect.
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  English Patient

  Hi Leolaia ,

  I really don't trust the Jewish version of events. To me, consulting a Jewish encyclopedia is like consulting a big book of lies. Jews have a colorful history of lying to Goyim (non-Jews) therefore I hold no interest in listening to what they have to say.

  Besides, any group of people which tells it's followers that 'sex with little girls is ok' and 'all non Jews are animals', 'all non Jewish women are whores' and 'most non Jewish men have sex with wild animals' are not worthy of any kind of respect.
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  True North

  English Patient,

  Who tells Jews these things? Where?
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  Double Edge

  Besides, any group of people which tells it's followers that 'sex with little girls is ok' and 'all non Jews are animals', 'all non Jewish women are whores' and 'most non Jewish men have sex with wild animals' are not worthy of any kind of respect.

  I think you're hanging out with some pretty weird Jews. I have many Jewish friends for decades, and I have NEVER heard that. It sounds a little like Nazis propoganda....
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  English Patient

  English Patient,

  Who tells Jews these things? Where?

  Good question. It's easy as Double Edge put it to simply cast aside such accusations as 'Nazi Propaganda', but when you see the true facts, Nazi Propaganda or not, the Jews are a racist race. But why, you may ask? The Talmud is Judaism's holiest book (actually a collection of books). Its authority takes precedence over the Old Testament in Judaism. Evidence of this may be found in the Talmud itself, Erubin 21b: "My son, be more careful in the observance of the words of the Scribes than in the words of the Torah' Even the Jewish Encyclopedia notes this fact. The Talmud is viewed higher than the Torah, and is a collection of teachings and doctrines from Rabbi's. Some doctrine of the Talmud:

  • Only Jews are human. [Gentiles] are animals. (Baba Mezia 114a-114b.)
  • For murder, whether of a Cuthean [Gentile] by a Cuthean, or of an Israelite by a Cuthean, punishment is incurred; but of a Cuthean by an Israelite, there is no death penalty. (Sanhedrin 57a)
  • Even the best of the [Gentiles] should be killed. (Babylonian Talmud)
  • If a Jew is tempted to do evil he should go to a city where he is not known and do the evil there. (Moed Kattan 17a.)
  • Gentiles' flesh is as the flesh of asses and whose issue is like the issue of horses.
  • If a heathen [Gentile] hits a Jew, the Gentile must be killed. Hitting a Jew is hitting God. (Sanhedrin 58b.)
  • If an ox of an Israelite gores an ox of a Canaanite there is no liability; but if an ox of a Canaanite [Gentile] gores an ox of an Israelite...the payment is to be in full. (Baba Kamma 37b.)
  • If a Jew finds an object lost by a heathen [Gentile] it does not have to be returned. (Baba Mezia 24a; Affirmed also in Baba Kamma 113b.)
  • God will not spare a Jew who 'marries his daughter to an old man or takes a wife for his infant son or returns a lost article to a Cuthean [Gentile]... (Sanhedrin 76a.)
  • What a Jew obtains by theft from a Cuthean [Gentile] he may keep. (Sanhedrin 57a.)
  • [Gentiles] are outside the protection of the law and God has 'exposed their money to Israel.' (Baba Kamma 37b.)
  • Jews may use lies ('subterfuges') to circumvent a [Gentile]. (Baba Kamma 113a.)
  • All [Gentile] children are animals. (Yebamoth 98a.)
  • [Gentiles] prefer sex with cows. (Abodah Zarah 22a-22b.)
  • The vessels of [Gentiles], do they not impart a worsened flavor to the food cooked in them? (Abodah Zarah 67b.)

  Cast aside these facts as 'Nazi Propaganda' if you want to, but remember that these are straight from Jews themselves. The facts remain that the Talmud is a racist religious textbook that is taught to practising Jews across the world.
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  Euphemism

  I don't have the resources at hand to verify your Talmudic claims; but assuming for the moment that they're correct, let me ask you this.

  The Bible says that all non-Christians deserve to die. (2 Thess 1:8,9) It describes non-Christians as ones "[given] up to uncleanness, that their bodies might be dishonored" and living in a "low sink of debauchery." (Rom 1:24; 1 Pet 4:4) And it describes heretics as "animals born naturally to be caught and destroyed." (2 Pet 2:12)

  So do you stereotype all Christians the same way that you stereotype all Jews?