Jews object to Mormon practice of baptizing dead Jews

by Gopher 16 Replies latest social current

  • Gopher
    Gopher

    http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=519&ncid=519&e=6&u=/ap/20040410/ap_on_re_us/baptizing_the_dead

    Jewish Group: Mormons Still Baptize Dead

    Fri Apr 9, 9:28 PM ET
    By MARK THIESSEN, Associated Press Writer

    SALT LAKE CITY - Researchers say that Mormons have continued to posthumously baptize Jewish Holocaust victims into their faith despite a promise to discontinue the practice.

    We are very hopeful that we will be able to convince the church to stop," Ernest Michel, chairman of the New York-based World Gathering of Jewish Holocaust Survivors, said Friday. If not, Michel said, his group will consider other options, "possibly legal steps."

    Church spokesman Dale Bills said in a statement Friday evening that church officials "do not know what may come of these discussions, but we welcome the involvement of any who seek to resolve amicably the concerns expressed by some of our Jewish friends."

    The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has long collected names from government documents and other records worldwide for posthumous baptisms. Church members stand in to be baptized in the names of the deceased non-Mormons, a ritual the church says is required for them to reach heaven.

    The practice is primarily intended to give salvation to the ancestors of Mormons, but many others are included, since the church believes that individuals' ability to choose a religion continues beyond the grave. Non-Mormon faiths have objected to the baptisms.

    "It's ridiculous for people to pretend they have the key to heaven," said Rabbi Marvin Hier, dean and founder of the Simon Wiesenthal Center in Los Angeles. "And even if they say they want to do somebody a favor ... it's not a symbol of love. It's a symbol of arrogance."

    In 1995, the Mormon church acceded to demands by Jewish leaders that the denomination stop posthumously baptizing Jews. But Helen Radkey, a Salt Lake City researcher, said on Friday that the process still hasn't ended.

    She said she has found posthumous baptism records for 268 Dutch Jews killed in Polish concentration camps, which she described as a "small sampling." All the death camp victims, incorrectly listed in the Mormon database as dying in "Auschwitz, Germany," were posthumously baptized well after the 1995 agreement.

    Mormon leaders reaffirmed the 1995 pact in December 2002, after Radkey found at least 20,000 Jews in the church's International Genealogical Index. The church says proxy baptisms have been performed for nearly every one of the 400 million names in the database.

    "The Jews have to either accept what the Mormons are doing or take legal action," Radkey said.

    Michel's group asked Sen. Hillary Clinton ( news - web sites) to intervene in the matter and the New York Democrat met last month with Sen. Orrin Hatch, a Utah Republican and LDS member, though neither side would comment on the session.

    The church directed its members after the 1995 agreement to not include the names of unrelated persons, celebrities and non-approved groups, such as Jewish Holocaust victims, for the baptisms, according to documentation the Mormon church provided Friday to The Associated Press.

    The church also assumes that the closest living relative of the deceased being offered for proxy baptism has consented.

    The pact, however, "did not guarantee that no future vicarious baptisms for deceased Jews would occur," according to church documents.

    In a Nov. 14, 2003, letter, church elder D. Todd Christofferson wrote Michel that the church did not agree to find and remove the names of all deceased Jews in its database of 400 million names. "That would be an impossible undertaking," Christofferson wrote.

  • Elsewhere
    Elsewhere

    So how is this any different than someone saying: "I'll pray for you"

    I've always found that offensive

  • Gopher
    Gopher

    "I'll pray for you" is very presumptious, almost arrogant.. It almost sounds like I'll be cursed unless they pray for me.

    I guess the Mormons believe these dead Jews will be cursed unless they're properly converted (even post-mortem). That's arrogant too.

    At least the JW's limit their conversion attempts to living people.

  • glitter
    glitter

    Ohhhh I misunderstood when I read the thread title, I thought Mormons were smuggling Jews' bodies out of hospital mortuaries and funeral homes and dunking them! What they really do is really arrogant and stupid. Hey I'll do whatever I want in life and pray to whoever I want and some Mormon will be baptised for me and I'll go to heaven... is that how it works?

  • Satanus
    Satanus

    Well, i find proxy baptism for me less offensive than christians who insist on praying for me, that kind of prayer being in league w sending curses, although of a positive nature.

    it's not a symbol of love. It's a symbol of arrogance."

    The rabbi knows of what he speaks, eh?

    SS

  • Hyghlandyr
    Hyghlandyr
    "It's ridiculous for people to pretend they have the key to heaven," said Rabbi Marvin Hier, dean and founder of the Simon Wiesenthal Center in Los Angeles. "And even if they say they want to do somebody a favor ... it's not a symbol of love. It's a symbol of arrogance."

    Of course pretending that you are god's chosen is not arrogant.

    Hey I'll do whatever I want in life and pray to whoever I want and some Mormon will be baptised for me and I'll go to heaven... is that how it works?

    Glitter that is a complete misunderstanding of Mormon theology. They baptise those who did not have a chance to get baptised in life, or who were decieved while they were alive. Baptism by proxy merely gives them an opportunity in the next life to accept salvation. They are presented with the fact that they have been baptised by proxy, then they can accept or decline the baptism. Many apparantly accept it. In any case life after death for mormons is not as it is for many others. The mormon hell, heaven and so forth are nearly identical to earth. Simply that the hell does not have the presence of god. So unlike the vast majority of christian theologies wherein god threatens you if you do not want to be with him, by means of eternal or temporary suffering and pain, god in the Mormon world view allows you to continue to live as you wish, just without his presence. He does not force himself on you.

    It is very much like the old Irish view. They called hell, literally the Godless place.

  • logical
    logical

    i am cursed

  • neverthere
    neverthere

    I think that is terrible for the Mormons to do that! If I found out they had done it to one of my ancestors you can bet there would be an a$$ kicking coming (figuratively of course).

    The "I'll pray for you" can be nice at times, though I am a pagan, I have friends who have said it in times of trouble, it is there way of trying to offer "support" I take it in the context it is meant, if they are praying for my soul to be "saved" I tell them to get coupons at the store, that is my preferred method of saving!

    Diana

  • shotgun
    shotgun

    Baptizing dead people using their names and stand-in's.....Guess Russell and Rutherford didn't corner the market on crazy ideas!

  • Mulan
    Mulan

    I can understand that. I learned recently that some of my Quaker ancestors were baptized by Mormons (by proxy) and it infuriated me. These people fled England in the early 1700's because of the persecution they were having, and came here for the freedom. The family were Quakers until about 1920 too. Now some wacko religion has taken them for themselves. I doubt they would appreciate it, if they could give their voice to it all.

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