question: why are humans worth more than animals?

by Realist 58 Replies latest jw friends

  • AlanF
    AlanF

    Hi Realist,

    : so what do you think of the compenhagen interpretation?!

    I don't think it's of much value in understanding what's really going on. I think that it's an excuse rather than an explanation.

    : i would prefer einstein's view on the matter...but then again...most people working in the field seem to agree with heisenberg.

    Quantum mechanics is so difficult to get a good conceptual handle on that I'm not surprised by that. But I think that Einstein's intuition is much closer to reality. I've discussed this with my BIL, who's a genius-level physics type, and he's influenced my thinking in this direction. When I took intro QM 15 years ago, and of course, during my many readings on the subject from a less technical point of view, I always had the feeling that people didn't really understand QM. And that's the impression I've gotten from the best literature.

    : by the way...have you figured out what an observer is in the context of quantum mechanics? is it any particle that can be/is influence by an object? it doesn't sound reasonable at all to demand an intelligent observer.

    I think that this is a fundamental flaw in the Copenhagen interpretation. After all, from a fundamental physics point of view, all "observers" -- intelligent or not -- are just collections of particles just like everything else is, in particular the system under observation. In this sense I think that there's something basically wrong with the "Shroedinger's cat" thought experiment, because the cat, being an "observer" of sorts, certainly knows if it's still alive. I think that replacing the cat with a human shows this all the more. We then have an intelligent observer inside the box. I haven't read anything where the more philosophical of physicists have dealt with this.

    : i am somewhat familiar with the cetral limit theorem....i was in the nyu phd program for molecular biology but decided to quit after the comprehensive exam inorder to switch to bioinformatics....so now i have to deal a lot with statistics

    Hah! I'm preaching to the choir!

    AlanF

  • Realist
    Realist

    hello Alan,

    But I think that Einstein's intuition is much closer to reality.

    i hope you are right man...because the other point of view is quite distrubing!

  • blacksheep
    blacksheep

    Yeah, let's throw out an essentially stupid question that most people have attempted to answer with COMMON SENSE.

    Let's show our educated and erudite we are by implying that the stupid question can somehow be answered by applying our vast knowledge of quantum physics.

    Why did any of us take the bait?

    Yes, AlanF and Unreal, we're ALL impressed!! Can you shut up now?

  • plmkrzy
    plmkrzy

    Now blacksheep your not being fair! It took all of us, including AF and R, many paragraphs to say I dunno.

  • Realist
    Realist

    blacky,

    great that you always contribute! it makes this world definitively a funnier place!

  • TD
    TD

    Realist,

    but shouldn't we instead of discarding the concept expand it to include higher animals (or all animals that most likely feel suffering) as well?
    i think suffering is the main issue here...lets say we kill an animal without letting it suffer...does this pose an ethical problem? i think it does not. what causes the ethical problem is suffering.

    I think suffering is an ethical problem, but not quite the same issue as the value of life itself.

    We had a case here in Arizona in the late 70?s where two brothers escaped from prison. Joined by their father and a family friend, they proceeded to flag down a car and execute an entire family, one by one, point blank in the face with a shotgun.

    At their trial, the defense attempted to make an issue out of whether the victims suffered or not, arguing that there was likely little suffering involved in having your whole head instantly blown off. I thought at the time (and still believe) that this was little more than a red herring.

    When the society in which you live recognizes that the life of your neighbor is of equal and identical value to your own life, he or she then has every bit as much of a right to live as do you. When the value of this life is also considered to be inestimable, then if you were to deliberately and unjustifiably take the life of your neighbor, then you have nothing of sufficient value to offer back to society in recompense save your own life. This is irregardless of whether the victim suffers or not.

    When this concept is literally followed through, the result would be forfeiture of your life. (Capital punishment) Although many societies don?t take things this far anymore, the result is still a long-term forfeiture of your liberty. (Incarceration) Anything less than these two options and human society begins to fall apart.

    Although the basic idea is often dressed up in fancy theological terms and appeals to higher authority, (Probably to get people, who are inherently selfish to accept it) it serves a very pragmatic purpose --- the continuation of human society.

    As much as we may like animals I don?t see how they may legitimately be introduced into the picture here.

  • Realist
    Realist

    really not sure which species is worth more!

    The Gentlest of Beasts, Making Love, Ravaged by War

    By SOMINI SENGUPTA alt
    Published: May 3, 2004

    K INSHASA, Congo - Upstream from this dog-eat-dog capital, where the Congo River spills its tendrils into the belly of the equatorial rain forest, lies the jungle home of one of mankind's closest cousins and one of the most endangered primates on earth: the bonobo.

    Genetically, humans and bonobos, a species of chimpanzee, are more than 98 percent similar. Socially, it is another matter. Matriarchal as a rule, bonobos eschew conflict. They do not fight over territory. They do not kill. Any small friction they resolve through sexual contact: a playful rub, oral sex, full intercourse.

    Peace-loving they may be, but during Congo's latest war, the bonobos' jungle habitat fell smack on the front line between fighting factions.

    Fishing and farming all but ground to a halt during the war, which officially ended last year. Civilians and soldiers alike turned to the forest to fill their bellies.

    More and more, the bonobos turned up as supper. Their smoked remains showed up at riverine markets. Babies were orphaned, which is to say they were more or less destined to die: the bonobo infant, accustomed to staying on its mother's back for the first several years of life, has great trouble making it on its own.

    So it was that the bonobo orphans of the central African rain forest found themselves hurtling hundreds of miles down the Congo River to this gritty metropolis and into the arms of a redheaded Frenchwoman called Claudine André.

    Ms. André recalls it as love at first sight. More than 10 years ago, after a famous, ruinous pillage of Kinshasa, Ms. André, then a businesswoman, went to the ravaged city zoo and chanced upon a bereft infant bonobo. He looked as though he wanted to die, she recalled. She named him Mikano, took him home and became, in her words, his surrogate mother.

    When the war came, more orphans trickled in. She kept them on the grounds of an elite American school. Then, last year, when peace came, she opened Lola Ya Bonobo, a sanctuary for orphaned bonobos on a 75-acre patch of green on the fringes of the capital.

    Infants are paired up with surrogate mothers. There is an endless supply of bananas and sugar cane (bonobos have an incurable sweet tooth). An electric fence encircles the park, so as to keep the apes from scampering out of the woods and into Kinshasa's traffic. The park is open to visitors.

    On a Sunday afternoon not long ago, the park's 31 young charges did what young bonobos do: chewed on blades of grass, swung from palm fronds, kissed, frolicked and fondled.

    "It's the hippies of the forest," Ms. André said, taking their wrinkled hairy hands in hers. "When they feel anxious, when they are afraid, they have sex. And they calm down."

    As if on cue, a big bonobo mounted a small bonobo. They rolled around on the grass, rubbed against each other and went on their merry ways.

    Bonobos are not proprietary about mates, and sex is not always about procreation. Homosexuality is au courant, and sexual play begins when they are barely a year old, though intercourse must wait until they are teenagers. Much to Ms. André's delight, a teenage orphan, a male, arrived recently. Hopefully, she said, mating will soon begin.

    "It's really make love, not war," Ms. André said of the bonobo way of life. "It was so sad to see such a pacific animal so destroyed by war."

    The plight of the bonobos, a species found only in Congo, is a window into the repercussions of war on the ecology of the Congo River Basin, one of the most diverse ecosystems in the world and home to more than 400 species of mammals. Mining, logging and a sustained trade in bush meat have all put the squeeze on their habitats.

    War having made vast swaths of the country inaccessible to researchers, it is impossible to know precisely how these creatures have fared. Certain habitats may have been left untouched, others devoured.

    In the Virunga Highlands near the border of Uganda and Rwanda, the mountain gorilla population has grown, according to a census by the Wildlife Conservation Society. By contrast, in the Kahuzi-Biega National Park, the eastern lowland gorilla's population has fallen by 70 percent to fewer than 5,000, according to Conservation International. The elephants in the same park may well have vanished.

    As for the bonobo population, scientists have no reliable numbers but fear the species may be nearing extinction. Late last year, the United Nations Environment Program reported that the bonobo, along with the gorilla, chimpanzee and orangutan, could disappear in 50 years.

    Peace is likely to present a new challenge to forest dwellers: Congo's rain forests have once again opened up to logging companies, and today the first batches of timber can be seen floating downriver from Équateur Province to the port here in Kinshasa. With blessings from the World Bank, 150 million acres of rain forest could be opened up for logging.

    As the World Bank sees it, timber concessions could pour hundreds of millions of dollars into government coffers. Environmentalists fear that the logging could also endanger the habitat of the Pygmy people, who have eked out a living in the forest for centuries. The bonobos are sometimes called Pygmy chimpanzees, because Pygmies too are averse to conflict; they too prefer to hunt and forage in the forest rather than fight one another for territory. United Nations investigators suspect that some of them had been eaten during the war too.

  • frankiespeakin
    frankiespeakin

    Real,

    Good article!

    I remember seeing a video on a chimpanzee troup that took 25 years to make,,(Jane Goodhal?).

    Any way after seeing it,,I was all teary eyed,,and felt very connected to the plights of the chimps.

    In Santa Cruz there is Ko Ko the ape. they have a video on that as well. These creatures have feelings every bit as real as ours. I hope we don't make them go extinct,,but if we do,,it won't be the first nor the last.

  • Left_Field
    Left_Field

    Humans are worth more in the slave industry.

    I'd be worth more than an ass [donkey, mule, possibly a horse of non throughbred lineage].

    Humans have tear ducts, the rest of the animal kingdom [AFAIK] doesn't

    We cry our eyes out, get smacked and cry some more.

    We can use kitchen utensils adequately and prepare food.

    That less-worth ass doesn't.

    I can dig a hole, so can a mole.

    I guess I would fetch a pretty penny on the open market - therefore I have a value greater than an ass or a mole in the ground.

    LF

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